Which Sansui integrated for phono MM/MC?

[aeberbach]

I'm partial to Sansui amps though I don't have any (yet) - my Dad had an AU-2200, it always felt like a quality item.

I'm thinking I would like a smallish, economical vintage amp for use with my turntable, one with a good phono stage, capable of MC if I ever buy such a cartridge. Perhaps a CD player too. I don't really want the expense of a well-regarded external phono stage or the extra cabling. I don't have a huge amount of money to put into the amp or the speakers right now but it would be nice to think that if $10k speakers somehow came my way the amp wouldn't be incapable.

Would the AU-α607MR be the right one to look at, or is there another that fits the bill?

 

[Hyperion]

The MC Phono stages in Sansui amplifiers are very decent but in the main perhaps not exceptional. There are very often loading requirements for the wide range of MC cartridges available, and people like to chose an external MC Step up device that suits their choice of MC Phono cartridge in this respect. Over the years the performance of MC step up devices has improved considerably. Having said that, when I tried out the MM phono stage in my Sansui AU-X1 it was the best I have ever heard, it was simply outstanding, thus I have reason to think that it's MC phono stage will be similarly good. But I also think a modern MC Phono stage will be at a very different, higher level of excellence. (I haven't been able to test the MC performance because I don't own an MC cartridge).

The AU-α607MR is an excellent amplifier with a good price compared to the higher models which attract a premium, and mainly offer higher power output, but with very similar pre-amplification performance. It would be well suited to being the amplification for an MM or MC cartridge, whether you use the internal MC Phono amp or an external unit.

 

[bolero]

I would look for a model that has transformers in the MC phono stage, and switchable MC input levels.

I think anything after the AU-D11ii, 607x/707x/907x & Alphas has MC transformers? D99x too?

Some comments from Hirano-San about designing MC stages while he was at Sansui:

D907/919: (edited: 917 is a car!! oops )

"It was only moderately compatible with MC cartridges, which left me a little dissatisfied. It seemed that many users were listening to MM type. The next model had to deal with the issue of how to support MC cartridges."

"Application to MC cartridges

The evaluation of MC cartridges has been increasing, perhaps due to the influence of an article by Takagi-san, an opinion leader at the time. A trend emerged that cartridges were not cartridges if they were not MC. Now, how should they be handled in an integrated amplifier? There was the MC transformer, but installing it inside the amplifier was thought to attract hum noise, so instead, it became popular to incorporate an MC head amplifier. We were forced to deal with this issue with the AU-D907, so we decided to make a head amplifier by connecting FETs in parallel and incorporate it. We didn't care much about the sound quality of this head amplifier. It didn't end up being of great quality, and we didn't have much time to consider it. Even when we visited critics' homes, it was normal to receive the output from a high-end MC transformer and do a listening test. In short, the head amplifier of the integrated amplifier was just a bonus."

AU-X1:

"MC head amplifier: FET complementary configuration"
"The MC head amplifier was adopted with six FETs connected in parallel, but I was disappointed when I listened to the prototype of the head amplifier alone. However, it was unavoidable because it is not possible to do anything better than this at the moment. I strongly felt that future models would have to be compatible with MC cartridges in a different way. At the very least, FETs did not match the MC cartridges because of their vague sound quality."

"

Later models than these used dedicated ( some of them American sourced ) MC transformers. Which follows with his narrative above: He decided to go with transformers instead of FETs.

quotes from this thread:

Ishino lab Sansui historical notes

Ishino labs is gone, along with their website. Hirano has passed away & although you can google translate the archived site it's not very convenient. RIP I thought it would be easier to post the translated logs here in a thread, as long as no one objects? I won't post any photos as Hirano...

audiokarma.org

 

[Sui-Yogi]

AU-X11 … restored from toes to head is unbeatable (in my opinion) and maybe 10k speakers will not be enough to hear 100% what the beast can deliver ….
SFF/DD topology
MM phono amp is from an other planet, I’m not sure if even the Sansui engineers knew what they have made there, since the available passive components from that time they couldn’t support the topology…
MC phono pretty dissent with any MC carriage up to 3K …

It needs work and money although, it’s not plug and play , recap is enough but far from what the amp can do ….

 

[DB-7]

The AU-@907 MC phono works great too.

 

[bolero]

I don't think any of those alpha MR series had MC transformers, fwiw. They're kind of hoky with the MC switch hidden on the back of the amp too.

Not saying you can't use them with MC carts, but if you really want ideal I'd find a model that does

Otherwise just get a MC headamp or step up transformer ( search "SUT" here ) and you can use any Sansui amp you want.

 

[bolero]

I discovered ( so far ) none of the post ~ '83 amps have multiple phono inputs. So it's not easy to switch between 2 TT's, let alone running MM & MC cart on each.

So I guess that MC switch on the back makes sense, as you'd need to switch the cables anyway. Unless you have 2 arms on your TT, or change the cart.

Something I like about the 70s Sansui gear is multiple phono inputs on most of it.

I'm looking into external switch boxes, but since phono levels are so low it seems a bit trickier than line level switching. Is anyone here doing this?

I like that the 907x has all the MC options on the front panel. I might add a 2nd phono input on the back, but it may not be easy to link with that MM/MC switch up front.

 

[hifihoosier]

This may not be entirely on topic, but I have found that the phono stage in my Yamaha CA-810 sounds a little better than the ones in the Sansui's I own.
(AU-505, AU-222, AU-517, 350a)

That said, of the Sansui I have, the AU-517 seems to sound the best, having used it with a Luxman PD-264 with AT cart, and with a Sansui SR-929 with clearaudio cart.
The 517 is limited to MM cartridges, but I have heard many people prefer an external transformer for MC-to-MM. I don't really know, have never gone that far down the vinyl rabbit hole.

 

[peterott]

I don't think any of those alpha MR series had MC transformers, fwiw. They're kind of hoky with the MC switch hidden on the back of the amp too.

Not saying you can't use them with MC carts, but if you really want ideal I'd find a model that does

Otherwise just get a MC headamp or step up transformer ( search "SUT" here ) and you can use any Sansui amp you want.

I actually do (or better did). For my Denon DL-304 - some very low level output - I had it on the Phono-inputs with MC/MM button pressed for some time. Sounded awesome, but newer LPs are sometimes crammed with too much music, so I had to get the volume pot to two o'clock if not three o'clock. Using a step-up now (with MM setting of that pushbutton) and I can stop with the volume pot at twelve o'clock.

True: the MM/MC button belongs to the front side. I do not like it being hidden on the backside of the amp.

 

[JimEGR]

These DIY kits with Sansui transformers have always looked like the MC bee's knees -

 

[JimEGR]

The backside MC selector on the 90's Sansui seemed to speak loudly about where the industry was heading at that time. Vinyl was out and CD's were in. The digital age. I believe Accuphase dropped Phono inputs all together at that time. Going all in on CD's.

The mid to late 80's seemed like the sweet spot for physical media inputs. MM/MC and the new "Disc" - CD's.

1984 AU-D11ii - All "Disc"


AU-D707X - The "HIGH MC" is a mystery that I have not solved yet. Is it a non-transfomer MC input? FET style? Maybe intended for Hight Output Moving Coil cartridges. I need to find a user manual.

 

[Hyperion]

From the schematic

Both of these inputs go into the (dual FET) Phono stage without transformer assistance, just some 'padding' resistors for impedance matching.
'MM' is 2.5mV sensitivity @ 100KΩ impedance
'High MC' is 2.5mV sensitivity @ 100Ω impedance

MC Trans - both of these inputs use the transformer, different 'taps' for the different sensitivity & impedance.
High = 250µV @ 40Ω
Low = 100µV @5.3Ω

Take from that what you will.

 

[JimEGR]

From the schematic

Both of these inputs go into the (dual FET) Phono stage without transformer assistance, just some 'padding' resistors for impedance matching.
'MM' is 2.5mV sensitivity @ 100KΩ impedance
'High MC' is 2.5mV sensitivity @ 100Ω impedance

MC Trans - both of these inputs use the transformer, different 'taps' for the different sensitivity & impedance.
High = 250µV @ 40Ω
Low = 100µV @5.3Ω

Take from that what you will.

PERFECT!

 

[bolero]

btw I have a vested interest in this topic, as I have a Denon DL103 MC cart along with a Denon HA-1000 I've been using it with

But I was curious about the Sansui's with a MC input, have been casually checking them out until this thread appeared

I think the FET MC circuits are probably fine, but as mentioned, Sansui upped their game sourcing the American transformers later on. Curious they didn't use Hashimoto?

From the 907x spec blurb: obviously translated from Japanese

"In addition to the High-MC position directly connected to the equalizer, the MC-High position and MC-Low position using an MC transformer are equipped.
The MC transformer uses two monaural types using super permalloy cores made by Magnetic INC (USA) with excellent magnetization characteristics."

Source: https://audio-database.com/SANSUI/amp/au-d907xdecade.html

 

[JimEGR]

btw I have a vested interest in this topic, as I have a Denon DL103 MC cart along with a Denon HA-1000 I've been using it with

But I was curious about the Sansui's with a MC input, have been casually checking them out until this thread appeared

I think the FET MC circuits are probably fine, but as mentioned, Sansui upped their game sourcing the American transformers later on. Curious they didn't use Hashimoto?

From the 907x spec blurb: obviously translated from Japanese

"In addition to the High-MC position directly connected to the equalizer, the MC-High position and MC-Low position using an MC transformer are equipped.
The MC transformer uses two monaural types using super permalloy cores made by Magnetic INC (USA) with excellent magnetization characteristics."

Source: https://audio-database.com/SANSUI/amp/au-d907xdecade.html

That DL103 is on my bucket list. I own a bunch of MM, a couple HOMC and just one LOMC - the Sansui AT-3100S. Which is a very detailed cart. More revealing than anything else I own. Only negative is it is sensitive to surface contamination. The albums have to perfectly clean to be silent.

 

[bluesky]

Has anyone ever heard the MC section of the AU-X901 amp? I've always wondered about that.

I've always used MM carts but never an MC.