White Van Scammers Getting Nasty on Boston CL

[soundweasel]

Not sure if this is the appropriate forum/category for this, so hopefully the Mod(erator) Squad will move it to the more appropriate if necessary. :thmbsp:

Recently I've been deliberately searching the Boston-area CL for white van "brands" and then posting warnings on CL (yes, I do have too much time on my hands in recent weeks). Lately, several of these sleazeballs have started posting nasty responses to the fact that they are being exposed on CL for what they are -- a part of a criminal enterprise.

One white van jerk is apparently using a shill -- or is shilling for himself -- to make CL postings espousing how great these speakers are, and stating that people are unfairly targeting them. Boo hoo. :tears:

Of course, the shill posters don't include any contact information in their postings. :scratch2:

Why doesn't CL simply block postings containing key words -- specifically white van brands -- associated with the white van scam? I understand that CL is largely a self-managed community, but if the community is being used to perpetuate fraud I'd think they'd want to protect themselves from this sort of abuse?

Just some New Year's Day musings.

 

[chadnliz]

Its not really fraud, folks buy a product at what they feel is a fair price......retail does sort of the same thing by jacking up prices and then saying its a big sale off of an inflated number.......... all the gadgets and mail order gizmo's are far and away mostly junk, so is alot of Herbal medicine, male enhancement and weight loss pills but its a cloudy area of legal definition.......... Is it a shame, yes.

 

[AltecDarpa]

it pretty much is fraud they use names that sound like well known quality brands, like divinchi in stead of daVinci, or Kirsch instead of Klipsch. have flyers saying its worth thousands, when its made in china for next to nothing.

its built to scam you from the ground up, thats what most would think of as fraud.

 

[chadnliz]

Pretty much fraud and actual fraud are two very different things.

 

[Urizen]

Pretty much fraud and actual fraud are two very different things.

In Pennsylvania, the act of selling white van speakers is punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03239/215429.stm

It's fraud (theft by deception).

 

[MunkeyQ]

I'd say it's fraud - it's intended from the ground up to dishonestly get money out of people. In my books, that's fraud.

 

[AltecDarpa]

a quick search on google will turn up the class action lawsuits against some of these cons.

call it what you want, most people will call it fraud. its a scam, they try to rip you off. what do you call it? isn't misrepresentation illegal?

 

[Out Of Time]

it pretty much is fraud they use names that sound like well known quality brands, like divinchi in stead of daVinci, or Kirsch instead of Klipsch. have flyers saying its worth thousands, when its made in china for next to nothing.

its built to scam you from the ground up, thats what most would think of as fraud.

Well, I for one won't be buying any Kirsch Le Scaleys, Herpeses, or Corny Horns any time soon then! But I have Rollez watches for sale... SONNY MulletMANs too.

 

[RWFE]

I would say its unscrupulous but probably not fraud although it depends. If they make actual factual representations about the goods that are in fact untrue then that would be fraud. But it could not be a subjective thing. Merely saying that the speakers are "great" when they are not would not cut it. For example the Virginia Consumer Protection Act has a laundry list of prohibited practices. Here are a few that could be applicable depending on the ad itself or what the salesman might say:

2. Misrepresenting the source, sponsorship, approval, or certification of goods or services;

5. Misrepresenting that goods or services have certain quantities, characteristics, ingredients, uses, or benefits;

6. Misrepresenting that goods or services are of a particular standard, quality, grade, style, or model;

14. Using any other deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, or misrepresentation in connection with a consumer transaction;

 

[chadnliz]

I would say its unscrupulous but probably not fraud although it depends. If they make actual factual representations about the goods that are in fact untrue then that would be fraud. But it could not be a subjective thing. Merely saying that the speakers are "great" when they are not would not cut it. For example the Virginia Consumer Protection Act has a laundry list of prohibited practices. Here are a few that could be applicable depending on the ad itself or what the salesman might say:

2. Misrepresenting the source, sponsorship, approval, or certification of goods or services;

5. Misrepresenting that goods or services have certain quantities, characteristics, ingredients, uses, or benefits;

6. Misrepresenting that goods or services are of a particular standard, quality, grade, style, or model;

14. Using any other deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, or misrepresentation in connection with a consumer transaction;

Thank you, as thats pretty much my point its not cut and dry in many cases, I dont like, sell or advise anyone to buy these speakers, I am talking in legal terms.
I do know one thing, I am not gonna get sucked into a long debate or arguement about it.

 

[musichal]

chadnliz quote:

Its not really fraud, folks buy a product at what they feel is a fair price......retail does sort of the same thing by jacking up prices and then saying its a big sale off of an inflated number.......... all the gadgets and mail order gizmo's are far and away mostly junk, so is alot of Herbal medicine, male enhancement and weight loss pills but its a cloudy area of legal definition.......... Is it a shame, yes.
__________________
So what about Bob and Enzyte?

 

[Chazb11]

I think it's a shame and I'm not taking the side of the scammers, BUT, if you're going to make a major purchase without doing some research AND ignore all the warning signs...well, you did it to yourself. An example of a warning sign would be the MSRP in large print on the box. No reputable manufacturer does that. If you can't find the item for sale in a store or major online retailer, that's another sign.

This sort of thing has always existed and will always exist. How about all of those miracle products you see on TV at 3am?

 

[chadnliz]

In Pennsylvania, the act of selling white van speakers is punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/03239/215429.stm

It's fraud, and it's criminal.

There is no law against selling "White Van Speakers" as you post hints to, a Detective was quoted as saying he believed it was "theft by deception" and could carry a prison term and a fine up to 5 years and $10,000.
Again what you are arrested for doesnt always mean a conviction...........yes it sucks to scam folks into thinking they got a better deal than they really did but I am going at this in a accurate way and its just not that cut and dry, though it would be nice if it was.
OK flame away, I am moving on..Happy New Years.

 

[archie2]

Contrary to popular belief White Van sales are not legally fraudulent. They are scams to be sure but as previously pointed out there is a difference. The fact that there are suits pending is no proof of illegality as anyone can sue anyone for anything although frivolous lawsuits can carry a penalty. Unless the suit can prove actual misrepresentation with intent the suit has no merit. In the cases of White Van scams this is difficult. I know of no successfully prosecuted cases wherein the the White Van sellers were found guilty. So it's caveat emptor all the way.

 

[terra1]

it pretty much is fraud they use names that sound like well known quality brands, like divinchi in stead of daVinci, or Kirsch instead of Klipsch. have flyers saying its worth thousands, when its made in china for next to nothing.

its built to scam you from the ground up, thats what most would think of as fraud.

It's a market based on misdirection and snake oil salesmanship.

It's based on lies. And that's not counting made up stories to sell them.

"I got these as a gift but I already have a system."
"Got these as a gift but don't have the space. Will trade for ipod or car."
"These are worth at least $200 even if they aren't worth $3000."

They are almost always never used and in a factory strapped box. If they are worth $3000 of audiophile quality why would they want to sell them unused? For $200 you can get better quality legitimate brand name speakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_van_speakers
White van speakers is a scam sales technique in which a salesman makes a buyer believe he is getting a good price on audio merchandise.

 

[RWFE]

There is no law against selling "White Van Speakers" as you post hints to, a Detective was quoted as saying he believed it was "theft by deception" and could carry a prison term and a fine up to 5 years and $10,000.
Again what you are arrested for doesnt always mean a conviction...........yes it sucks to scam folks into thinking they got a better deal than they really did but I am going at this in a accurate way and its just not that cut and dry, though it would be nice if it was.
OK flame away, I am moving on..Happy New Years.

I read the article and from what I read I think it would be difficult to get a conviction based on theft by deception personally.

"You can't con an honest man. It's an old aphorism, and for the most part it's true: most scams are dependent on the greed of the victim. They are convinced that they are getting something for nothing, or something for a lot less than it's worth, and they are blinded to the truth."

 

[dinglebeer]

I would say its unscrupulous but probably not fraud although it depends. If they make actual factual representations about the goods that are in fact untrue then that would be fraud. But it could not be a subjective thing. Merely saying that the speakers are "great" when they are not would not cut it. For example the Virginia Consumer Protection Act has a laundry list of prohibited practices. Here are a few that could be applicable depending on the ad itself or what the salesman might say:

2. Misrepresenting the source, sponsorship, approval, or certification of goods or services;

5. Misrepresenting that goods or services have certain quantities, characteristics, ingredients, uses, or benefits;

6. Misrepresenting that goods or services are of a particular standard, quality, grade, style, or model;

14. Using any other deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, or misrepresentation in connection with a consumer transaction;

Would number 6 not apply being as they do they say the product is of a far greater quality than it actually is?

 

[RWFE]

Would number 6 not apply being as they do they say the product is of a far greater quality than it actually is?

It would depend on the exact sales pitch and exact literature and exact ad. These people are very tricky and know the law better than the mark. They can say a lot of things that don't cross the line. And quality to a degree is a subjective thing. The person suing would have to evaluate the lies and individually show them to be such by the use of expert witnesses most likely. And even then it is not assured depending on the nature of the misrepresentations. As a lawyer that handles mostly auto fraud cases the last expert I hired in a car case cost 1100 dollars, far more than what the speakers would cost. I charge 200 an hour for legal work. As you can see its all gray and you would spend 5000 to prove a 200 dollar point and still not be guaranteed to win.

 

[w1jim]

There is so much junk on the Boston CraigsList (and likely on every CL). The iPod clones, the wii crap, people selling stuff that they got the day before from the "free" section. Over time so much of this crap is relisted so it's doubtful that many (any?) of the "white van" speakers are in fact ever sold there.
Though there are suckers out there; a co-worker was selling a camera and got a response from a Nigerian. He asked me how he could sell it to him and protect himself (easy, just delete it).
If people are getting scammed on speakers just imagine how rich they must be from all those Barristers needing intermediaries to transfer large sums of money. Not to mention the new-found size of their "junk".
It's all rather amusing.
JimB

 

[terra1]

Would number 6 not apply being as they do they say the product is of a far greater quality than it actually is?

One might think so if they bought a pair.

But in a way they cover themselves as far as pricing. It is marked as MSRP $3500 but they do look beautiful. And often are sold as a bargain. Caveat Emptor. You didn't have to buy it.

Also they often move around and will meet you somewhere. Then they are gone. So there is just as much problem of enforcement as there is defining fraud.

We know scams against the elderly bilking them of their savings is illegal and easier to grasp. I don't see the scam fraud definition and debate is really the point. The original thread actually called them scammers. The fraud definition is a sidebar to the original premise --> White Van bad. ugh *caveman lawyer grunt*

I guess the question is really whether the scam/fraud meets the standard of illegality. And that becomes a jurisdictional definition apparently.

In Pennsylvania, the act of selling white van speakers is punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.

from the same wikipedia article I linked above:

Law enforcement officials are often reluctant to get involved in these transactions, despite their questionable legitimacy. Employers with proper business licensing often hire independent contractors to sell the speakers on the street from white vans.

In Pennsylvania, the act of selling white van speakers is punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000.[6]

Dissatisfied buyers are usually unsuccessful in obtaining a refund, particularly since locating these workers and their warehouses is seldom easy. This is because white van salesmen list their operational hours to be between 9 and 5, when in fact they are only at the warehouse for one hour in the morning, usually between 8 and 9. Moreover, returns are only allowed within three business days. Therefore, although the legality of this business model is questionable with regard to trademark infringement, unfair competition, false advertising, and possibly income tax and sales tax evasion, buyers generally have little ability to take direct legal action. However, if you deliver the notice of cancellation within three business days and you take the speakers to them early in the morning, you may be able to return them.

However, there are some things the conned or the simply disappointed can do. A disgruntled buyer may file a complaint with the state Attorney General, alleging that the seller intentionally misled him to believe he was purchasing high quality goods from a reputable manufacturer. They may also report the seller to the Internal Revenue Service or their state's Department of Revenue.

The local police should also be contacted. Law enforcement could issue citations, as rarely do the speaker guys obtain the proper permits and license to sell "out of a vehicle". However, this is not always the case. The reason why speaker men work for companies is because these companies shield them from potential lawsuits often by providing tax identification codes, licenses to sell out of vans and other guidance on how to avoid law enforcement and civil suits. Many of the sales take place in the parking lots of Best Buy, Home Depot, Wawa Stores, or Circuit City with video surveillance equipment installed, making video evidence of the act likely, and where ATMs are handy for their customers.

In Australia, Consumer Affairs or the Office of Fair Trading should be contacted in the state the sale occurred in. If the seller arrived from another state, the ACCC's Scam Watch should be contacted[7]. In addition, the local council should be contacted if the seller does not have a street trading permit. State Police should also be contacted so that Police can build a pattern and profile on the offenders.