Why did it take this long to understand

[Guest159]

AV is all about imagining.

The idea of the sound tracking the action from left to right, front to back and now up above is exactly what imaging is.

Imagine turning off the video and just playing the audio / sound effects from something like Master and Commander.
You can hear the cannon blasts from the right and left as the ships engage. Cannonballs whiz by overhead and explode into something behind you.

Seeing what you hear, that's imaging.

It does not fit into the "audiophiles" definition of imaging but that's mostly because music isn't generally recorded that way.

You're right. If a stereo only does left and right it's generally said to image very poorly. If a stereo doesn't portray a depth, height, and width well beyond the rectangle formed by the boundaries of the speakers, I'm not impressed. A competent stereo doesn't need to surround you with speakers to give you a sense of height or expansiveness beyond the perimeter of the front channels. It doesn't need a middle channel to give a center focus to voices. A good pair of stereo speakers don't sound like sources of sound, buy that's exactly what AV sound systems depend on.

I personally never found 5.1 or 7.x sound systems convincing or appropriate for watching TV or movies. You're starting at a 2D image with limited sight lines and the sound is coming at you from all directions. It feels unnatural and disorienting to me. I don't think systems like that are well suited to music because they presume an entirely different recording philosophy. One that forces a sense of space by virtue of a wall of sound sources, as opposed to a simple pair of transparent sound sources.

 

[300man]

A good sales person "should" know how to handle all types of customers. I worked as a assistant manager of a chain discount carpet store in the 70s. I was 18, with no salesman experience. But I knew a bit about carpet from working with my buddies Dad installing carpet. I tried to pass along some knowledge to every customer.

To the "Just looking" (more often then not) crowd my reply varied based a few different factors. But my immediate response would be one word with a smile "great" , "excellent" , "welcome" which made most people pause. Then I would say just one bit of info I want to share with you. If you see anything you like regardless of size, we can get that same carpet in any size you need. I would then leave them alone but keep a eye on them. After some time I would circle around and just walk by...without saying anything. This low pressure approach worked and the questions would start and the knowledge got shared.

I broke every sales record there was during the short time I was there.

 

[E-Stat]

Why did it take me until now to really hear great detail and soundstage?? Why have I never understood what retailers and reviewers were really talking about?

You lacked good mentors.

I confess that I was spoiled with several dating back to my teens - a couple were prominent audio reviewers who knew the sound of live, unamplified music, helped direct me as to what to hear and had phenomenal systems that revealed details in my recordings I had never before heard.

 

[E-Stat]

...and the sound is coming at you from all directions. It feels unnatural and disorienting to me.

You mean like what we experience every day in real life?

 

[FONSguy]

I sold audio in the Northern Virginia/DC/Maryland area in the classic audio days of the mid to late 1970's and early 1980's. before I ever worked at the stores I visited ALL the players and talked to them. I would bring 5-6 LP's with me and at least 4 were low played Sheffields, and a few others. I went out of my way to listen to what the sales folks was astonishing. I heard Magnplaners, Quads, JBL pro monitors, Big ass poweramps, and many gadgets that were popular at the time, Tube and transistor high end stuff and LOTS of phono stuff, both carts, and arms and turntables. from 1972 to 1976 I was just a customer, but after getting my AES cert I worked for a small company selling carts, arms audiophile LP's and such. I became their "Turntable Technician". Worked for Needle in a Haystack, and then Meyer-EMCO a highly respected chain. I had good ears, and had the pleasure of hearing big bands LIVE! (DAMN!!!) I worked as an audio engineer doing live recordings as well. My best buddy owned a Pro audio company so I learned about Crown/JBL big systems, even helping to set up big concerts at DC's Capital Center. I would have arguments with my buddy of audiophile vs pro audio. He showed me stuff, and I showed him stuff too. when I sold I knew how everything worked, sounded, and strong and weak points. By 1988, I had it right for my needs. DB Systems pre and power amp, Grace F9e/SME 3009 Type 2 improved, FONS CQ-30 TT, Aiwa M700 cassette deck and Yamaha tuner. Finally retired the tuner and cassette deck in 2003.

 

[Guest159]

You mean like what we experience every day in real life?

Your life consists of staring through a window at a two dimensional world while your ears here stuff coming from all over the place? Aren't you the guy who complains about all the stuff done to audio in post-production? And you're going to liken the most advanced audio and video synthesis techniques to real life? I'm not sure what to say....

 

[E-Stat]

Your life consists of staring through a window at a two dimensional world while your ears here stuff coming from all over the place?

While my field of vision is wider than most movies, I nevertheless hear sounds above and behind me. How about you?

And you're going to liken the most advanced audio and video synthesis techniques to real life?

Synthesis, no. Multi-channel music involves microphones placed at different places in the hall. I'm not talking about the 53rd remix of DSOM done with knob twiddling. Do you believe that large scale movie production uses a single or stereo pair of microphones?

 

[just_jeff]

You lacked good mentors.

I confess that I was spoiled with several dating back to my teen - a couple were prominent audio reviewers who knew the sound of live, unamplified music, helped direct me as to what to hear and had phenomenal systems that revealed details in my recordings I had never before heard.

You are absolutely right. I was not fortunate to have someone who could explain and demonstrate great sounding 2 channel audio. And because of this, I never knew what I didn't know. None of my family or friends had a clue.

Growing up in the tech industry and the 'digital age' I find most of my information online. Unfortunately, there is no way to realize the potential of stereo audio unless you actually hear it. You can't simply read about it or watch a youtube video on it. Unless you have a system that can demonstrate it - you won't realize what you're missing. Big box stores certainly aren't doing it and small retailers who focus on the educated buyer on high-end equipment decisions aren't doing it (in my experience).

This is why I feel like the industry needs to find a better way of educating the general population on what they're missing and what the real potential is for good audio.

 

[E-Stat]

This is why I feel like the industry needs to find a better way of educating the general population on what they're missing and what the real potential is for good audio.

And it won't be by relying upon shallow metrics like SINAD that provide information but little to nothing in terms of useful knowledge.

 

[biscuithead]

I guess what surprises me the most is how uneducated the general public is about audio quality. I would have expected most high end audio dealers (not big box AV stores) to do a better job of educating the average Joe/Jane and build their local market. I would imagine there would be a much bigger market for quality audio equipment if people only knew what they were missing.

My guess is that ^^^this^^^ is due to the evolution of convenience overwhelming discriminatory listening.
I think that when the HiFi hobby began, it was trying to replicate live symphonies at home, it has evolved into replicating an engineered recording. Modern life seems to be about ease. There isn’t anything easy about setting up a great sounding system in a great sounding room. Average Joes and Janes are busy with other things.

 

[hopeless]

I guess it depends on what the store is like. Sales people aren't all cut from the same cloth, but there are probably as many who essentially treat it as a job and aren't overly enthused about what they sell as not.

Then consider the "tire kickers". It can get old sharing one's enthusiasm and/or knowledge with people who are pegged as unlikely buyers.

You are very correct. If you work in a big box store, you have an environment not conducive to demos and equipment where it tends not to matter. Your basic customers don't have a clue what's they are missing. Salespeople don't often possess the language, patience, or the experience to change someone's world.
I used to love to stop the sales process as soon as the customers started dictating what products they wanted. I had a few different games to play depending on how things went. All of them designed to get them to get their brains and mouths to stop and ears to open. Sometimes it didn't work and they left with what they thought they wanted. Other times they got a system they invited their friends over to see AND listen to. It's a two way street, but real HiFi shops are getting rarer, and too many don't build a path for potential customers to grow. Then wonder why they go out of business.

 

[hopeless]

I'm 48 and I've always been a fan of music. I've always upgraded the systems in my vehicles. I've visited most AV dealers in my local communities (Austin, Orlando, Atlanta, Portland) to buy speakers, TVs, AV receivers, etc.

Why did it take me until now to really hear great detail and soundstage?? Why have I never understood what retailers and reviewers were really talking about?

I have a clue - I've never asked the right questions at those retailers. Looking back, at the ~50+ retailers I've been to sales people will usually ask 'Can I help you?' as a greeting. My answer was usually "I'm just browsing" or "I'm looking for new speakers, what do you have around $x price point?". Most sales people will have very short answers and would simply make me feel like I'm wasting their time.

Lookin back, what I wished sales people would have done is help me understand why physical placement in a room matters. Why crap class D amps can muddy the sound and demonstrate this to me. How placing a sub in a corner may sound louder but looses the detail and demonstrate it to me. I wish sales people would take the time to understand and get to know me and my environment; help me understand why a good setup sounds great. I wished they would have asked me if I wanted to hear something amazing and put on my favorite song, sat me in the sweet spot and let me hear what a proper setup sounds like without the concerns if I was going to purchase or not. I would have spent so much more $$ in this industry and been enjoying music much earlier in life!

I can't tell you how may retailers I've been to where the sales people would pretty much ignore me until I asked them about a specific speaker or amp. Their response is typically the price (over $5k) without understanding why I'm asking. I usually walk out after a few mins of browsing feeling frustrated by their snobbery. I've always just assumed this is who all audiophiles were; people who sell or own very high priced equipment to simply brag about how much it costs.

While this may be the case for some, I now realize (by my own accidental discovery) that there is so much more to the music production that I never new existed and had missed out on for so many years. I've also realized that it takes a fairly good bit of understanding and knowledge about equipment, room characteristics, speaker placement, etc to really fully achieve the ability to hear what the sound engineers, producers and musicians had put into the recording. My discovery came in part while playing around with a product called miniDSP and a room correction app called REW (Room Equalization Wizard). Seeing how speaker placement had a direct affect on comb filtering from room characteristics as well as sub placement had an immediate affect on what you hear. I could also immediately see the affect by overlaying sound measurement charts on top of each other comparing the results.

I am now really enjoying going back through the decades of music I have always known but have never really truly heard.

I'm now trying to educate my kids on all the things I've learned over the years so that they can realize what great music recordings sound like instead of living most of their lives hearing music through cheap airpods.

You have been hanging around the wrong people.

 

[quiet]

Sales is a tough job. I'm not into sales and don't know a lot about audio. I correct non performing race boats and fast pleasure boats. I accept about one out of 20 request. That's because the clients don't have something necessary to understand the boat in either it's current state or after corrected. There are many reasons for this. But it's usually a lack of patience or basic engineering ability. They need to understand the boat in order to survive driving it. The LONG education starts after I come to the conclusion they "might" have what it takes. Then the re-engineering and correcting begins. Having big money to spend (boat correction is very expensive) doesn't begin to qualify them as a client.
Boat performance objectives are easily identified. It's not doing something or it's doing the wrong thing. Audio objectives are not easily defined.
So, I can see where audio sales would be very dependent on the customer at hand. What do they think they want, what do they really want, what do they know, what don't they know, what do they know that's no so?
Audio sales looks like an uphill battle. If I was selling audio and got one good qualified customer a day I would be thrilled. O' boy. Finally a customer with hears. Hot diggity dog. What can I do for you today!

 

[Guest159]

While my field of vision is wider than most movies, I nevertheless hear sounds above and behind me. How about you?


Synthesis, no. Multi-channel music involves microphones placed at different places in the hall. I'm not talking about the 53rd remix of DSOM done with knob twiddling. Do you believe that large scale movie production uses a single or stereo pair of microphones?

View attachment 1863062

Gawd no! They take samples and manipulate the living hell out of them in a production studio! They don't have guys shooting rocket launcher a across a soundstage with an array of mics capturing what it REALLY sounds like. I'm just blown away that you complain about complicated mic'ing, production, and mastering techniques in studio music, and then suggest that there's anything real about how multichannel movie soundtracks sound. That's just insane. I personally think the wildly unrealistic sound effects used in movies detract from them and substitute reality for a saccharine entertainment that sounds interesting, but not real. It very much what I call "hyper-real" in the same way that new TV's with insane contrast ratios and crazy high refresh rates assault the senses and are less convincing for doing so.

 

[j!m]

There’s a good book I suggest to many people interested in good sound: “Get Better Sound”

It focuses on getting the most out of what you have. A big part is speaker placement, but it gets into a lot of stuff, even suggesting specific records to listen to and what to focus on in them, so you have some benchmarks as you grow.

And I like to brag about how LITTLE I have spent on my system. One of my amps I paid full retail for, since I bought it new. Everything else has been used.

I did have a few decent places around- Tweeter, mentioned earlier, one that is still open I can’t remember the name of (recent visit was fun, but I don’t need anything really) and another called Sound and music. Tweeter is gone but Sound and music might still be open. Oh, there was one in Hartford too- fthey had the PSB stratus good I was dying to hear. Sounded like crap because they wired one out of phase... I fixed the problem and they sounded good but I never went back to that store.

I’ve heard electostatics in the sweet spot. And I moved my head six inches. That’s an amazing experience, but I knew those weren’t the speaker type for me. But being able to experience that- to have that goal to drive me to raise my crappy advents up on milk crates and spend hours aligning them perfectly; to rebuild their crossovers with Wondercaps; and finally to flip over on of the tweeters so they were mirrored and no identical (the dome was offset slightly). I made the most of what I had, and added when I could. That was long before the book existed.

I had a subscription to Sterophile, when they were undersized. Now they are the same size as other magazines... still fun to read but I haven’t been a subscriber since the 90’s. I suggest reading back issues. Once I figured out which reviewers heard things the way I heard things, it made the audition and eventual purchase experience easier. (I did buy quite a bit of stuff new in the past)

And I worked in (industrial) sales and even when the customer knows what they want, they may not know what they want, never mind what they actually need...

Now I’m tinkering with Rega stuff. I already sell a belt test kit (six materials so you can see what you like, for reasonable money), and I’ll be adding different bearing ball materials as well (so you can buy what you like, or maybe I’ll do a test kit with that too...) Just today I was drawing up some replacement feet for improved isolation, that also look good and provide clearance under the deck in case you want to put your motor control or phono pre under it. (At one point I had a lot of shelves in a double-wide rack...) And I have an idea for a decoupled and damped sub platter. Even have some snake oil being extracted for lubricant of the main bearing. (Actually it’s one I’ve been testing for about seven years now and I don’t think there is anything better- no snakes were harmed in its production) but I digress...

 

[mjw21a]

Eh, back when I sold retail Compaq computers back in the 90's and then HP after the buyout for the Compaq/HP repair agent in a small town (Toowoomba) I found a number of approaches were necessary to explain technology in order to get a sale to the uneducated masses, and then there were those who new just enough to be dangerous and those that built their own and just came into the store to try annoy their salesperson and convince themselves of their own superiority. Reality is I always built my own as well, and if you're capable of assembling and supporting a decent system you don't need a brand name PC. Then Harvey Norman opened a store in Toowoomba and we were unable to price match them on exactly the same gear. They simply had more buying power. Customers clued on pretty quickly that no matter where they bought their Compaq/HP machine, we were the service agents so in the end it was unprofitable to sell retail. I haven't touched on sales since then thankfully.

With stereo gear I find the internet a far more valuable resource when researching a component and you quickly pick up on which reviewers actually know what they're talking about and have similar preferences to yourself. Still, I suspect if I simply bought the LTA Z10 Integrated + Spatial M3 open baffles + Lampizator DAC bundle it would match my current system for less money. Then again, it might not. Unless I come into some money however I'm pretty well done and am in some ways downsizing going to a single servo controlled arm table vs 3x dual arm tables and selling off all my extra gear which I don't need. I've actually gutted my second system downstairs and while it doesn't sound as good as before, it really doesn't need to. That system hardly gets used apart from when I'm in the **** with my wife.

For most of my life I was running AVR's and saw no real improvement with many sideways moves. Once I discovered tubes amps and vinyl about 7 years ago my system has improved rapidly to the point where there's just no point trying to improve things further..... I hate to think of the money spent in this journey though....

 

[E-Stat]

I'm just blown away that you complain about complicated mic'ing, production, and mastering techniques in studio music, and then suggest that there's anything real about how multichannel movie soundtracks sound.

The difference is multi-tracking sounds kills the sense of natural depth and ultimately sounds unnatural while hearing sounds around you in a movie setting is quite natural. If you recall, I responded to this question of yours:

"... while your ears here stuff coming from all over the place?"

Yes, sounds in my life do come from all over the place. From directly behind. Above and sometimes below. Every single day.

 

[peerson]

I stumbled into my "Seet-Spot" by accident. Stereo had always been just L-R separation for me back then. I never knew that it could be a 3-D experience. Once I found it, I was gobsmacked. It truly was a special experience. That was probably 40 years ago, now.

 

[RobRoy]

I sold hi-fi between 1976 and 1982. I loved it as a serious hobby as well. I was the salesman that WOULD explain that stuff simply because I enjoyed the hobby so much. But I'm now 66 and wear hearing aids (thanks to playing bass next to too many loud drummers). Much of this stuff I learned is no longer all that relevant to my ears.

Problem is that a lot of it can't be taught. It's simple to describe, but then you have to look for it and eventually hear it. And to me, what that means is that it is really not that important - until it is because you notice it.

For me, a blatant example of this is when I first heard MP3. It was 96k mp3 and I thought it sounded like a CD. It's because my measurement of quality in that day was hiss/noise, frequency response and wow and flutter. The 96k MP3 had no noise, crisp highs, and no wow and flutter. So it was "perfect". However, after a week I noticed things like cymbal crashes had a subtle swishy underwater sound. I thought my player had picked up a defect. Nope. My ears were becoming more sophisticated. I did some reading and learned all about the meaning of the word, "lossy".

You are having similar experiences. There are so many ways music reproduction is not perfect, but we get used to things not being perfect, until we hear better. When you hear a million dollar system set up properly, you notice immediately that it is as different from a five figure sound system in quality as that system is from a three figure system as is different from a bluetooth mini-box. And the reasons are ridiculously complex. And it takes exposure to good stuff (or quality live music) to notice what is "missing" or "gummed up" in lower quality stuff.

But if you get too concerned about it you are leaning into "audiophile" vs music lover territory. A music lover doesn't really need to constantly strive for system perfection. That is the realm of the audiophile side of a person. However, once you've experienced the best, and set up correctly, you either want it at all costs or, like most people, see it as a million dollar sports car and you settle for your crappy Porsche or Corvette. Or Toyota 86.

That's really what it comes down to. And for what it's worth, with really good Michelin sports tires, my old Scion FR-S is an absolute blast to drive on the Kentucky twisties.

 

[j!m]

If only it were so easy to spend more to get more enjoyment.

Unless you use your limitless funds to hire a professional to set up your rig properly, treat the room properly and all the rest, then spending the big bucks on equipment will be a waste of money.

Otherwise, you need to make the personal investment in learning all the interlaced and interdependent factors that lead to the best possible sound from whatever equipment you have.