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Why do records seem to age and wear so differently?

Moonwatcher

Moonwatcher

Active Member
It mystifies me that while a Columbia recording of Leonard Bernstein conducting "On the Waterfront" and "West Side Story" in like 1961 sounds terrific, despite being played hundreds of times in all kinds of unthinkable circumstances (possibly even on a child's Mickey Mouse record player!), Keith Jarrett's ECM "Still Live" album (1986), purchased new and played only with high compliance styli, is chock full of pops and other noise after the second or third playing. Scratches seem to emerge from nowhere. I liked that album so much I bought another copy, and it too became almost unbearably noisy after just a few plays.

Washing it with recommended techniques--a drop of Dawn or alcohol and distilled water--yielded no improvement.

Why do some albums seem almost ageless--e.g., Joni Mitchell's "Blue" (Reprise, 1971), Dave Brubeck's "Anything Goes" (Columbia, 1966), "Jesus Christ Superstar" (Decca, 1970)--sounding much as they did decades ago, while others sound awful almost immediately? The Jarrett album was supposedly "audiophile"!
 
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"almost immediately" implies they were OK initially. What causes degradation? Some are just crappy recycled vinyl to begin with but it could be something more sinister than that. Are you using that DJ Shure SC35C from your sig on that record?
 
tnsilver said:
"almost immediately" implies they were OK initially. What causes degradation? Some are just crappy recycled vinyl to begin with but it could be something more sinister than that. Are you using that DJ Shure SC35C from your sig on that record?
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Good question. I have not played it with that heavy Shure cartridge (which has been a very good match for the Garrard arm); moreover, I originally had the problem with a much more modern Kenwood turntable and a 1.5g cartridge. I do sometimes wonder, especially with the Jarrett record, if there is "something more sinister" at work, built in obsolescence that will keep fools like me buying new copies! :)
 
Ken Boyd said:
Vinyl manufactures might have different formulas, maybe some are more resistant to needle wear. I have noticed the same thing as the OP.
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Yeah, that seems possible, although I have other ECM Keith Jarrett albums like "The Köln Concert" that sound great after suffering untold abuse in college and later.
 
Prior to the '73 oil crisis no one had even considered recycling so PVC compounds were always virgin fresh and pristine with records having much lower surface noise. After that record shops started to return unsold records to the labels where they'd be shredded and melted to be reused. This included some low tech preparation such as punching out the paper labels and collecting the used vinyl in less than sanitary conditions that were notorious for contaminating the compound. It gotten so bad that pretty soon labels started to publish limited editions as "audiophile" just because they were made out of "virgin" vinyl. We were the worst! As the world's largest energy consumer the 1973 OPEC induced oil shortage caused a national panic and in it's aftermath we've gone through a lot of industrial adjustments that were far less than ideal. The Brits and Germans weren't as panicky so as far as I can tell none of my foreign post '73 records suffer the same surface noise. I'd speculate further and say that at some point we've managed to remedy our recycled vinyl processes (probably with better handling of PVC waste and the aid of plasticizers) b/c later issues from the 80's are mostly OK. Fast forward to the 2nd coming of vinyl entering it's 2nd decade with profiteers and opportunists pressing records in their grandma's garage and backwards ex-soviet plants and we're back at square one.
 
I have a number of classical albums, some do sound better than others. Columbia, in particular, seems to have a vinyl that wears quite well with age and maintains sound quality throughout use. I also find their recordings to be more refined, I suppose at the studio level :dunno:

I guess this is material-based and only comes to light with the use of great equipment or trained ears.
 
...and this is why "back in the day" it was common to record the first play of a new album onto tape, then store the vinyl away until a new recording was needed.
But neither vinyl nor tape are impervious to housefires, and I refuse to start over.
 
It is very doubtful that the major record labels used recycled vinyl on first issue, top catalog records, even during the oil crisis. I never saw any with the infamous "bits of label paper sticking out from the vinyl". I believe this has been a myth for many years. Recycled vinyl on cut-rate or reissues, maybe but, not on first quality product.

Doug
 
I have bootlegs from the 70's where you can see paper embedded in the vinyl.
 
I have bought hundreds of used albums, some of them literally picked from bins with no inner sleeve for $.99. Other than a few 'wrecked' records that were immediately thrown in the trash, a cleaning in the Spin Clean or in the sink, plus some play on the record player, has made my records sound great. FWIW, there are plenty of records I've acquired that have sounded better with more plays.
 
I can’t say I’ve ever experienced any of the aforementioned problems. I just bought 40 LPs from the thrift store 2 weeks ago, covering early 1960s through 1980s. Yea, I’m a big spender; 10/1$! (10 cents each!) After cleaning (no RCM), they are great sounding, other than a few with scratches. Even a couple of early 1960s RCA Victor Red Seal copies in the mix, in pristine condition. Several were covered on mold, powder, and just filthy.

Early to mid 1970s LPs still sound great. I’ve never heard any garbage in the grooves, not from Steve Miller Band, or any of the 1973-1980 LPs in my collection.

I would venture that the pops and clicks mentioned above are from dirt in the grooves that dishwashing liquid can’t remove. Been there. Done that. You need a better cleaner.
 
50nstillhifi said:
I have a number of classical albums, some do sound better than others. Columbia, in particular, seems to have a vinyl that wears quite well with age and maintains sound quality throughout use. I also find their recordings to be more refined, I suppose at the studio level :dunno:

I guess this is material-based and only comes to light with the use of great equipment or trained ears.
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Columbia and RCA Victor had invested huge sums of money in their record manufacturing starting in 1958-1960 and afterwards. My mother was Quality Control Supervisor for Columbia Records, 1955-1967. I toured the plant in 1967, in California. Columbia took quality very seriously! I inherited my mom’s collection of 4,000 LPs that she personally put together from ‘55-‘67. Columbia pressed for all labels back then. They had the quality and capacity to get the records pressed, packaged, and shipped on time for new releases, where other labels would get delayed.

BTW, back then, labels were loaded in the press along with the puck; the labels were pressed on when the pressing was made. Scraps were made into clean pucks. Bad records were never recycled into new records. At least not by Columbia Records.
 
+1 on Columbia LPs often sounding fantastic. They did originate the format so I suppose they would be well suited to knowing how to make a quality record.

Very cool that your mom was QC for Columbia. I probably own some records that she was responsible for.
 
The only problems I ever had with records wearing badly was with certain albums. A few because of less space between groves due to cramming too many tracks or too many long tracks on the the record. A few were just plain poor pressings where buying a new one solved the problem.
 
Doug G. said:
It is very doubtful that the major record labels used recycled vinyl on first issue, top catalog records, even during the oil crisis. I never saw any with the infamous "bits of label paper sticking out from the vinyl". I believe this has been a myth for many years. Recycled vinyl on cut-rate or reissues, maybe but, not on first quality product.
Doug
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Not a myth. Following the oil crisis years I bought many imported US cut-out records that had been pressed during this period (I was a poor student). I bought several records with pieces of paper pressed into the surface.
 
tnsilver said:
Prior to the '73 oil crisis no one had even considered recycling so PVC compounds were always virgin fresh and pristine with records having much lower surface noise. After that record shops started to return unsold records to the labels where they'd be shredded and melted to be reused. This included some low tech preparation such as punching out the paper labels and collecting the used vinyl in less than sanitary conditions that were notorious for contaminating the compound...
Click to expand...
Although this practice was done in previous years. I recall reading a story about a major label trying to control the inroads one r+b independent label was making on their sales. In true record-industry style, they responded to this competition by trying to control access to the raw material required to press records at the time - shellac (it was the 78 era). The major company couldn't understand why they were able to continue to press records and stay in business. The independent record company was buying all the returned records that didn't sell from the major company (at something like 3 cents per record), melting them and using the raw material to press their records. They thought it hilarious, as new shellac cost more (eg. 5 cents per record), so they were actually saving money in the process.
 
- How religious the mfgs are when it comes to limiting pressings from a single master
- Quality of the vinyl. Lotsa "off brands" added recycled vinyl to the mix. Real virgin is the way to go.
- Quality of pressing equipment? Kind of an arcane art keeping that stuff running at peak performance.
 
As I just got my vinyl system up and running again, I can say I was happy to find some
Colombia "Masterworks" vinyl that has been stashed since the 60s. On others, there were
some special considerations the various labels said they took etc etc.
The Colombia vinyl seems pretty darn good.

Heck I forgot I have a ton of Blue Note "special" pressings that are demo only.
Those sound good too, I have about 50 that have never even been open.

As I'm dialing in my system, I'm playing some classic rock, folk, Jazz, blues
etc. Sadly I found the original Yellow Brick Road Album...but sides 1 & 2 are
gone. Sides 3 & 4 are there, but I was really jonesing to hear sides 1 & 2.

I found and old mono Joan Baez, from the Vanguard label, it's nice vinyl
but kind of beat up, with clicks and pops. But what a voice.

Ok now Mangione Tarantula - His benefit concert.

Earlier I enjoyed COLD BLOOD, Thriller! that is just plain GOOD.
Pics and System in the AD797 convert thread on the last few posts.
 
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