Why do so many people modify Klipsch?

[michaelhigh]

You have me, who never modded my Fortes. You have Moray who modded his some. Then you have Set who went whole hog. And lots of Klipsch owners have at least done the Crites or Klappenberger mods. That's quite a range of possibilities, and I can't think of another brand that acts as a blank canvas with which to paint your audio signature on, once you've heard them and decide what to do in terms of personalization. For me, I just added a schiit bifrost DAC to my computer files, and like the Fortes or the Sansui 8080DB I run, it took my system to an entirely new level of precise reproduction. Amazing what that $350 DAC did for me.

 

[moray james]

Michaelhigh: you hit the nail on the head "to make them yours" "to make them sing the song you want them to". That's it Best regards Moray James.

 

[capt.chaos]

--Since Klipsch is a company, and has to make money, they cannot afford to use the 'best' (subjective of course) of everything, and be able to make a profit, since then almost no one could afford their products.
.

I have to disagree the the previous Statement. There are many companies like Klipsch that have to make a profit but do not skimp on cost. Klipschorns sell for 9k and Avantgarde Duo Mezzo speakers sell for 50k and Tannoy Westninster Royal speakers sell for 35k. But people are still buying them and they are making a profit.

 

[SET12]

I have to disagree the the previous Statement. There are many companies like Klipsch that have to make a profit but do not skimp on cost. Klipschorns sell for 9k and Avantgarde Duo Mezzo speakers sell for 50k and Tannoy Westninster Royal speakers sell for 35k. But people are still buying them and they are making a profit.

I guess I can agree with that :yes:

But for the masses most people simply can't afford those prices.

This why DIYing is so effective cause it brings the opportunity to approach or even exceed the performance of some of the above products of which Klipsch is certainly within this group with their P39F's that sell for some $20,000 which I have heard in a home with the feeling that DIYing done well can truly return nearly a 10 fold return on the dollar invested into DIYing and maybe not all the time as much but for many its substantially less than retail costs.

I like many 10-$20,000 speakers

Bought Klipsch Fortes invested $2500 in network parts.


I like $10,000 SET Mono Blocks

Designed and built for $2000


I like $10,000 CDP's

Bought and modified a $2000 CDP for $1000


All equaling a 30-$40,000 system and for first time I have no burning lust and I especially can thank AK for that.

For further reflection on why I modified my Klipsch read this where I wrote on "Soundstage Verus Just Listening..." http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=429040&page=4

SET12

 

[SET12]

Not sure who the response is directed to.... I only use active crossovers. Nowadays, amplifiers are relatively dirt cheap, and I can design an active crossover that is way out of the league of passive inductors, capacitors and resistors... (though my very first pair of speakers I ever built when I was a kid used the oil-filled caps, and hand-wound toroidal inductors, but I had access to a myriad of T&M equipment.. geez, the xovers weighed 10 lbs).

Wow, to each our own and that's fine! but.....

"Nowadays, amplifiers are relatively dirt cheap"

And they probably would sound that way to my ears. Sounds like an amp is an amp to you!

I suppose you couldn't understand why someone would pay $10,000 for a 10 watt amp?

"Oil filled Caps"

Caps have come a long ways to my ears. And none are universal IMO.

"Hand-wound toroidal inductors"

The last thing I'd use, the iron cores have departmental effects vs Air Core designs and then again not all air cores being equal by any-means.

"Resistors"

The technology like that in the Duelund with negative temperature coefficients has taken resistors to a whole new level, just ask many of the high end manufactures that are using them. I nearly took the Ohmite wire wounds that I was using and threw them in the garbage after hearing the Duelunds

"Myriad of T&M equipment"

I do as well, I have Electrical Engineers l work with everyday too, but I trust my ears more.

"I only use active crossovers"

Outboard I bet, to much in the signal path for my tastes with every gain stage (or Op Amp) a form of compression to my ears. The real way to do it is in the amplifier for me, which cutting edge DIYers like to do using existing RC components between gain-stages to achieve there goals.

But to think that a passive network can't do the job as well means you haven't gone far enough IMO an example http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hug&m=147282

Go and read some inductor FAQ's here http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html

If your into moderately loud music, then as Dr. Bruce Edgar one of the worlds foremost horn experts has said simpler is better and I agree. But then if your into the very loud more complex networks are the order like ALK's ES networks. But even ALK will agree for lower levels the simpler networks excell over his ES networks.

Cheers

SET12

 

[capt.chaos]

Wow, to each our own and that's fine! but.....

"Nowadays, amplifiers are relatively dirt cheap"

And they probably would sound that way to my ears. Sounds like an amp is an amp to you!

I suppose you couldn't understand why someone would pay $10000 for a 10 watt amp?

SET12

I understand why you would pay $10,000 for a 10 watt amp. I paid $7,500 for a 75 watt amp.

 

[Frank Sol]

I'm pulling this # out of my azz

If anyone follows the 'standard' upgrades they will return 5 times their investment in better music reproduction. Upgrade dollars vs the retail cost of other new speakers

 

[SET12]

I'm pulling this # out of my azz

If anyone follows the 'standard' upgrades they will return 5 times their investment in better music reproduction. Upgrade dollars vs the retail cost of other new speakers

Frank, I think you have to look around at what is available for what you want and look at what it would cost you.

Then look at what you can use to modify and the cost to get to that level.

Certainly a 5x is very good IMO.

But I will say that not all mods will approach a 5-10x return, its really about the value to ourselves. But they certainly can achieve such #'s and I have as well others in regards to DIYing.

I understand why you would pay 10,000 for a 10 watt amp. I paid 7,500 for a 75 watt amp.

Fair enough!

You have me beat, the most I ever spent on a new amp was $2000 for a 50 watt amp which was sold long ago as tubes did much more for me and I can design my own amplifiers with them easy enough but sometimes not that easy as you know issues do come up but mostly are solvable.

SET12

 

[no1herenow]

I have to disagree the the previous Statement. There are many companies like Klipsch that have to make a profit but do not skimp on cost. Klipschorns sell for 9k and Avantgarde Duo Mezzo speakers sell for 50k and Tannoy Westninster Royal speakers sell for 35k. But people are still buying them and they are making a profit.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

There is not necessarily a correlation between 'price' and 'quality'.

I have been a Klipsch fan (the classic series) ever since I was a little kid. I do believe they have been sold to Audiovox, which hopefully is not the death knell for them.

Having disassembled numerous K-horns, and other speakers, (and extensively testthem in a Bell Labs facilities), I will have to respectfully disagree with your 'skimp on cost' statement. But then again, what do I know... I only have first-hand test documentation.

People can spend $9K or $35K or whatever on speakers.... keeps the manufacturers laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[no1herenow]

I guess I can agree with that :yes:

But for the masses most people simply can't afford those prices.

This why DIYing is so effective cause it brings the opportunity to approach or even exceed the performance of some of the above products of which Klipsch is certainly within this group with their P39F's that sell for some $20,000 which I have heard in a home with the feeling that DIYing done well can truly return nearly a 10 fold return on the dollar invested into DIYing and maybe not all the time as much but for many its substantially less than retail costs.

I like many 10-$20,000 speakers

Bought Klipsch Fortes invested $2500 in network parts.


I like $10,000 SET Mono Blocks

Designed and built for $2000


I like $10,000 CDP's

Bought and modified a $2000 CDP for $1000


All equaling a 30-$40,000 system and for first time I have no burning lust and I especially can thank AK for that.

For further reflection on why I modified my Klipsch read this where I wrote on "Soundstage Verus Just Listening..." http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=429040&page=4

SET12

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"But for the masses most people simply can't afford those prices."

Plus, most people understand the concept of 'diminishing returns'.


Quote:"This why DIYing is so effective cause it brings the opportunity to approach or even exceed the performance of some of the above products of which Klipsch is certainly within this group with their P39F's that sell for some $20,000 which I have heard in a home with the feeling that DIYing done well can truly return nearly a 10 fold return on the dollar invested into DIYing and maybe not all the time as much but for many its substantially less than retail costs."

Very well said. When building/creating/designing anything, always properly allocate resources/money/effort where there is the maximum return on investment (or performance, or whatever criteria you choose) is utilized.
One reason I almost entirely DIY, is that I can use the best materials, have access to the same (or better) test facilities than the manufacturer, have access to a sea of engineers, and can do it for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:"Bought Klipsch Fortes invested $2500 in network parts."

I hope that included the bars of gold.

Quote:"I like $10,000 SET Mono Blocks"

I build my own amps, that will easily equal those. Granted, though, mine cost me a total of $40 in parts.

This wants me to start a new career in audio, where I can sell 'burned-in' silver cables, and esoterica, for obscene profits.

 

[no1herenow]

Wow, to each our own and that's fine! but.....

"Nowadays, amplifiers are relatively dirt cheap"

And they probably would sound that way to my ears. Sounds like an amp is an amp to you!

I suppose you couldn't understand why someone would pay $10,000 for a 10 watt amp?

"Oil filled Caps"

Caps have come a long ways to my ears. And none are universal IMO.

"Hand-wound toroidal inductors"

The last thing I'd use, the iron cores have departmental effects vs Air Core designs and then again not all air cores being equal by any-means.

"Resistors"

The technology like that in the Duelund with negative temperature coefficients has taken resistors to a whole new level, just ask many of the high end manufactures that are using them. I nearly took the Ohmite wire wounds that I was using and threw them in the garbage after hearing the Duelunds

"Myriad of T&M equipment"

I do as well, I have Electrical Engineers l work with everyday too, but I trust my ears more.

"I only use active crossovers"

Outboard I bet, to much in the signal path for my tastes with every gain stage (or Op Amp) a form of compression to my ears. The real way to do it is in the amplifier for me, which cutting edge DIYers like to do using existing RC components between gain-stages to achieve there goals.

But to think that a passive network can't do the job as well means you haven't gone far enough IMO an example http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hug&m=147282

Go and read some inductor FAQ's here http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html

If your into moderately loud music, then as Dr. Bruce Edgar one of the worlds foremost horn experts has said simpler is better and I agree. But then if your into the very loud more complex networks are the order like ALK's ES networks. But even ALK will agree for lower levels the simpler networks excell over his ES networks.

Cheers

SET12

Quote:"And they probably would sound that way to my ears. Sounds like an amp is an amp to you!"

The amps we built had a noise figure close to 290K.

Quote:"I suppose you couldn't understand why someone would pay $10,000 for a 10 watt amp?"

Well, a few reasons:1). they hate their money 2). no concept of diminishing returns 3). they don't know how to build one themself, for a tiny fraction of the price.

Quote:"Caps have come a long ways to my ears. And none are universal IMO."

Sure have. But having done this decades ago when I was a 10-year-old kid, my options then were rather limited.

Quote:"The last thing I'd use, the iron cores have departmental effects vs Air Core designs and then again not all air cores being equal by any-means."

I never said anything about iron cores.

Quote:"The technology like that in the Duelund with negative temperature coefficients has taken resistors to a whole new level, just ask many of the high end manufactures that are using them. I nearly took the Ohmite wire wounds that I was using and threw them in the garbage after hearing the Duelunds "

Negative temperature coefficient resistors have been around way before you and I were born. I remember using thermistors when I was 9 years old. Yawn.


Everyone has their own opinions about audio.

 

[capt.chaos]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

There is not necessarily a correlation between 'price' and 'quality'.

I have been a Klipsch fan (the classic series) ever since I was a little kid. I do believe they have been sold to Audiovox, which hopefully is not the death knell for them.

Having disassembled numerous K-horns, and other speakers, (and extensively testthem in a Bell Labs facilities), I will have to respectfully disagree with your 'skimp on cost' statement. But then again, what do I know... I only have first-hand test documentation.

People can spend $9K or $35K or whatever on speakers.... keeps the manufacturers laughing all the way to the bank.

I agree that a bigger price tag does not necessarily mean better quality. What I was disagreeing with was that Klipsch could not use the 'best' parts inside. Because then they would cost to much and people would not buy them. I was trying to show that if they sound good people will buy them no matter the cost.
If my Khorns would have cost twice as much, I still would have bought them. I like the way they sound. And I am sure you are right about manufacturers laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[markw300d]

That's quite a range of possibilities, and I can't think of another brand that acts as a blank canvas with which to paint your audio signature on, once you've heard them and decide what to do in terms of personalization.

+2 Well said!

 

[Frank Sol]

Bought Klipsch Fortes invested $2500 in network parts.

I hope that included the bars of gold.

:scratch2:

no1herenow, I do not understand why you are being so disagreeable to a simple concept.

If after 2,500 (mods) + 500 (used original price) = $3K transforms a pair of speakers to where they outperform a $7,000 retail pair then the price of the mods is a BARGAIN

 

[Brian]

I think he, like me, is trying to figure out the breakdown of costs be component. I've not seen the crossovers but, it seems $2,500 for a pair of crossovers is extreme unless their are a large number of componets that were custom made or almost impossible to obtain.

Could you give a breakdown? I'd appreciate is asd I have a set of Heresy IIs that I've thought of modding but want to know all there is including costs before deciding.

 

[Frank Sol]

... it seems $2,500 for a pair of crossovers is extreme unless their are a large number of componets that were custom made or almost impossible to obtain.

Could you give a breakdown?

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340


Happy reading :yes:

 

[Frank Sol]

I believe the dubiousness (nice word , huh?) toward spending BIG $$$ on mods is doing so won't transform an old Klipsch to an elite level, say better than a 7K new pair. This is understandable...

All I can say is you have to listen to some modified Forte' to understand. The proof is in the listening.

I have $1,000.00+/- invested in my mods plus the 400.00 I paid for the Forte' (they were in mint condition). I can 100% assure you they can outperform a 1500.00 new pair of any brand. I'm being totally unbiased

 

[no1herenow]

:scratch2:

no1herenow, I do not understand why you are being so disagreeable to a simple concept.

If after 2,500 (mods) + 500 (used original price) = $3K transforms a pair of speakers to where they outperform a $7,000 retail pair then the price of the mods is a BARGAIN

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not being disagreeable at all. People are free to spend their money on anything they so desire.

I used to build drag race cars as a hobby (one d*mn expensive one). They were good, they were fast, but once you started getting near the limit, it got really expensive, really fast. Was it worth another $20K to gain 0.05 seconds? Perhaps if I were a professional at it, yes.
Even those with a basic engineering degree (well myself and all my 160 engineers are a ways beyond that) realize that improvements in literally anything start to come at a more and more expensive price tag, with questionable (ROI) results.

That is all I meant.

 

[SET12]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:"But for the masses most people simply can't afford those prices."

Plus, most people understand the concept of 'diminishing returns'.


Quote:"This why DIYing is so effective cause it brings the opportunity to approach or even exceed the performance of some of the above products of which Klipsch is certainly within this group with their P39F's that sell for some $20,000 which I have heard in a home with the feeling that DIYing done well can truly return nearly a 10 fold return on the dollar invested into DIYing and maybe not all the time as much but for many its substantially less than retail costs."

Very well said. When building/creating/designing anything, always properly allocate resources/money/effort where there is the maximum return on investment (or performance, or whatever criteria you choose) is utilized.
One reason I almost entirely DIY, is that I can use the best materials, have access to the same (or better) test facilities than the manufacturer, have access to a sea of engineers, and can do it for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:"Bought Klipsch Fortes invested $2500 in network parts."

I hope that included the bars of gold.

Quote:"I like $10,000 SET Mono Blocks"

I build my own amps, that will easily equal those. Granted, though, mine cost me a total of $40 in parts.

This wants me to start a new career in audio, where I can sell 'burned-in' silver cables, and esoterica, for obscene profits.

Quote:"Plus, most people understand the concept of diminishing returns"

This is something that I stress to people on extreme mods or extreme amplifier designs.

But as to the networks I stress that associated gear has to be up to the task in order to hear the full potential of extreme mods otherwise the return is diminished.

Quote:"I hope that included the bars of gold."

Well it included a lot of things I often find in listening from $10,000 loudspeakers. Wide deep sound stage. Continuity of dynamic punch through out the frequency range, great sense of body high resolution and so on.

Quote: "I build my own amps, that will easily equal those. Granted, though, mine cost me a total of $40 in parts."

I sincerely doubt that, maybe in your mind you can, But your not likely going to succeed telling a person with 30-40yrs of SET listening experience that you can build a $40 amplifier that will match his 45,2A3 or 300B SET amp subjectively.

Quote:"This wants me to start a new career in audio, where I can sell 'burned-in' silver cables, and esoterica, for obscene profits."

Perhaps you should! Myself, I certainly have heard phenomenal cables do some amazing things. But I really am not interest mega cost cables and have managed very well making used cables work for me or even something as inexpensive as a pair of $35 IC's that I demonstrated to a friend vs his $1200 IC's that it wasn't likely that they would sound significantly better. His IC's were better but not $1200 better, luckily he was happy he bought them used for $300.

I tend to go after things of substance and the networks were substantially so.

SET12

 

[SET12]

:scratch2:

no1herenow, I do not understand why you are being so disagreeable to a simple concept.

If after 2,500 (mods) + 500 (used original price) = $3K transforms a pair of speakers to where they outperform a $7,000 retail pair then the price of the mods is a BARGAIN

Thank you Frank!