Why do these Advent/1 sound so bad !? (pics)

[Jedi]

I've had these for over a year and a half now and I just can't understand why they sound so bad . The highs are sort of up front and the bass will only sound ok if I turn up all the bass on the preamp . I got these free on CL and all they needed was a refoam . I got the foam from Simply Speakers and did the job myself . I've refoamed several speakers before and I know I did them right . I've gone over the cabs making sure there are no air leaks . I've gone over the wiring making sure I didn't hook the woofers up out of phase . Next to my BA-70's they sound like poop ! I dont get it . Any suggestions guys ?
Anyone ?

 

[RadioGnome]

You could try a recap?
Those Advent tweeters always sounded a bit up front and harsh at times to me but it is made up for in the mids and lows (at least to my ears.)

 

[JBL GUY]

Since you have had those speakers apart, it might not be a bad idea to pull the woofers again and make sure the polarity is correct and the same on each woofer.

You could actually check it using a AA battery and making sure both woofer move the same direction for the same polarity of applied voltage.

 

[Jedi]

Since you have had those speakers apart, it might not be a bad idea to pull the woofers again and make sure the polarity is correct and the same on each woofer.

You could actually check it using a AA battery and making sure both woofer move the same direction for the same polarity of applied voltage.

Yea I did that , twice already , and they are right . Thanks for the reply JBL GUY !:thmbsp:

 

[Jedi]

Make sure the woofer frame is sealed to the speaker - use thin foam tape if you have to - that is key. Any leaks will affect the sound. They are also the smaller advents they don't have as much bass as the bullnose advent cabinets.

Well...no leaks . I've done that as well . Would a recap make a difference in the low end ?
Thanks for the reply botrytis .:thmbsp:

 

[Jedi]

You could try a recap?
Those Advent tweeters always sounded a bit up front and harsh at times to me but it is made up for in the mids and lows (at least to my ears.)

Thanks for the reply .:thmbsp: I wonder if a recap would make a difference in the bass . The top end is harsh but only if I really drive them hard . But I don't listen to them very loud .

 

[Copa1934]

I've had these for over a year and a half now and I just can't understand why they sound so bad . The highs are sort of up front and the bass will only sound ok if I turn up all the bass on the preamp . I got these free on CL and all they needed was a refoam . I got the foam from Simply Speakers and did the job myself . I've refoamed several speakers before and I know I did them right . I've gone over the cabs making sure there are no air leaks . I've gone over the wiring making sure I didn't hook the woofers up out of phase . Next to my BA-70's they sound like poop ! I dont get it . Any suggestions guys ?
Anyone ?

I have early (what you have) and late model as well. I like my late model better, sound wise. That said, they can be a tad up front, but mostly I've noticed this at higher volume levels. Bass is pretty good, to me, but nothing like my speakers with 12" drivers or those that are designed/tuned better.

Not sure how you are testing seal, but if you push on the woofer (just around the dust cap surface) there should be solid resistance. If you can push the cone in you likely have a leak. A bad cap can rob the middle ground on these. The woofers were really meant for a larger cabinet (used in the Large Advent), but bass should still be "acceptable".

 

[Bkphoto]

recap will always help...

 

[Copa1934]

recap will always help...

But not the bottom end, not in a two way. Will help more in the mids. He's having issues with bottom end.

Problem is, not having A70 speakers I don't have anything to gauge on so no idea what the OPs idea of bass performance is.

If the mid bass is the issue, that can improve with surround break in. All depends, again, on what the OP's idea of bass is. Many of my friends talk about "bottom" end and most of the time what they "mean" is mid bass. They just don't realize it.

 

[dhanson64]

Hi.... it maybe a possibility here that those voice coils aren't perfectly centered an are off just a little, this also can cause a loss in the bass output. Also to it might just be the new foam surrounds are not the proper weight n or stiffness, surrounds that are not matched up close too thee originals for thickness weight an compliance and are to thick an heavy can cause a speaker cone to be to restricted causing loss in bass volume compared to the old original factory type.this happens a lot when some people try switching to a rubber surrounds when they were designed originally for foam surrounds an set up the suspension/ spider assemblies for foam roll. Anyway I've seen this happen to when replacing factory foam surrounds by Not Re-using the proper foam surrounds meaning the weight and thickness. It can by the way work in reverse as well, it happen to me when Refoam my Ar 9ls 10" bottom firing woofer's, The Refoam shop used a lot lighter weight thin foam surrunds on them instead of the proper factory type of foam material's and all the diameters and roll match up same as factory but being lighter an thiner foam material an to soft the woofer would bottom out when turning up the volumes say just past 12 or half way. I had to pull them an have them rechecked and shop said that even though they are the proper roll an dia/attachment they were too soft and used to light of foam surrounds that were designed for JBL an not the long throw Ar woofer's causing them both to bottom out.Also I'm not commenting directly on or about the suppler of the foam surrounds at all, I do know there very reputable. I'm just commenting on my own personal experiences when I have run across/also had this same issues like this

 

[Jedi]

I guess I do mean it lacks mid bass . I run the tone controls flat . When I'm listening to some jazz on the Bostons I hear the bass drum ok , they sound full . I switch over to the Advents and suddenly the kic is gone , I can still hear the stand up bass alright but it's not as full as with the A-70's . And the A-70's are 8" woofers !
Maybe these just aren't for me . I've tried different placement , in the corners , off the floor..everything I've read on this forum ! I guess I'll just send them down the road .
Thanks everyone for the help .
Rudy .

 

[dhanson64]

Hi hey don't give up yet, pull a woofer out an check and see how easy it freely move's. If it's too firm/to much resistance the foam maybe to heavy. So the foam may be causing the woofer cone to not compress as it was originally designed. Easy fix is just put a lighter thinner softer foam surrounds on them, it will help them move easier an will sound much more full and dynamic. If the foam surrounds are to stiff dynamic bass output will be down in sound an have way too much midrange. If you want more bass from the driver it needs to move freely and not be help back by a foam surround that maybe to heavy causing it to need more power / energy to produce proper bass. You could always also just turn up the bass controlled on the peramp to compensate for the lack of bass. But I'd recheck those foam surrounds.

 

[Donkey Karma]

Do you have access to a another set? Maybe your ears just do not favor them?

They have a unique sound. That woofer while generally regarded as having a very pleasant and true tone they are also not known for their thump down deep.

Tweet can be considered harsh and tinny. Mids..... Well warm plush mids are generally not present with these.

I have the NLA's and SA's. I enjoy the crap out of them with acousticals and folk style music. Not for others.

 

[birdmannj]

I guess I do mean it lacks mid bass . I run the tone controls flat . When I'm listening to some jazz on the Bostons I hear the bass drum ok , they sound full . I switch over to the Advents and suddenly the kic is gone , I can still hear the stand up bass alright but it's not as full as with the A-70's . And the A-70's are 8" woofers !
Maybe these just aren't for me . I've tried different placement , in the corners , off the floor..everything I've read on this forum ! I guess I'll just send them down the road .
Thanks everyone for the help .
Rudy .

Not sure if this could be considered, but how about moving to a 14g Air Core inductor that is of the same mH as the factory inductor?? I put some 14g Erse Air Core's in a pair of Advents and it really 'opened' up the bass/mid bass of the speaker. Also upgrading the woofer's wiring to 16g may have helped the cause, too. Just food for thought. Also maybe decrease any of the acoustic fill as well?

 

[Mystery]

If you are listening to Advent egg fried tweeters for the first time, yes they are bright.
When you crank up, they will be in your face with highs and lows but not enough mids.
Same thing with NLA's.
I've had 2 pairs of NLA's, 3 pairs of smaller advents and a pair of 1's.
All had similar sound. I think I mentioned in NLA thread few years ago that they sounded like there is a big mid frequency hole going from highs to low frequency.
Needless to say, I have passed them on except maybe one orphan somewhere in the basement.
New capacitors will clean them up so try that.
Maybe they are bad due to old crossover and ignore my comment if that's the case.

 

[JURB]

You might just be expecting too much. Alot of the Advents I have heard had really good bass, and low bass, but not that much of it. I had a pair of A-70s and can tell you they are slightly bass heavy. I actually liked them but got rid of them when I got the A-150s.

There is no law that says you can't use the tone controls. The speakers and room affect the spound so much, we don't often hear anything near flat.

Anothr thing is speaker placement, if you want a side by side comparison, unfortunately you can't really do that. Take and remove the Bostons from where they sit and put the Advents right there unless you already have. Placement is crucial for mid-bass. By mid-bass I mean from about 100-350 Hz. That range usually has the most effect on ones perseption of bass, as there is alot more in that range in most material than in the low bass range.

The bass out of the Bostons is pretty hard to beat. I have had people ask if they were the only speakers running, expecting to find a subwoofer hidden somewhere. Nope, in that day I think those were just about the best eight inch woofers out there. Those little EPIs were nice as well but the Boston cabinets were better.

 

[Jedi]

This is where they sound best . I do have some of the bass turned up on the pre . Any more than that and it gets muddy . Maybe the rooms too small . But then my JBL L-19 's sound fantastic in this room as well as the BA 150's .
Thanks for the input guys ..you're the best ![emoji106]

 

[Copa1934]

This is where they sound best . I do have some of the bass turned up on the pre . Any more than that and it gets muddy . Maybe the rooms too small . But then my JBL L-19 's sound fantastic in this room as well as the BA 150's .
Thanks for the input guys ..you're the best ![emoji106]

I miss my drums. Position is something not touched on, that I recall. Placement, in the room, raised, toe-in, all have significant impacts. I liked mine best roughly 24" off the ground and inverted. Put the tweeter about ear level. Got the best imaging from them that way. Worked for both my early and later versions.

 

[dmag]

This is another forum that may be of help.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showforum=23

The crossovers are simple enough to build a pair and slip them into the cabinet for test purposes.
It may just be possible Advent isn't your cup of Sangria.
I had a pair and never really warmed up to them .

 

[Doug G.]

dhanson64 has pretty much described the critical factors in an acoustic suspension design.

The woofer surround is very critical to the overall speaker sound since the woofer cone is also contributing to the midrange and the upper end response must integrate well with the lower end response of the tweeter or there will, in fact, be holes in the midrange which really doesn't happen with any early Advent with the grille on if it is in factory condition. The early developers of acoustice suspension speakers, including Henry kloss, experimented with many materials and configurations to obtain the ideal solution to proper woofer performance in these systems.

I am convinced that complaints about response abnormalities with Advents is due to some one thing or another not being correct.

The woofer surrounds MUST be of the extremely compliant (floppy) variety with a 17-18mm roll. Not installed, the surround shouldn't really be able to support itself but should droop. After installation, the woofer cone, out of cabinet, should easily be able to be pushed in with only the spider offering any resistance at all. If there is any real effort, at all, required to push the cone in, the surround is too stiff and will affect the speaker response. An acoustic suspension speaker relies on the trapped air in the cabinet to control cone position restoration and NOT the mechanical structures of the low frequency driver.

I want to add a note about woofer bottoming too. That is almost always caused by insufficient airtightness in the cabinet and that is what allows the woofer cone to be able to move too freely, not the surround material. If the air seal is good, the trapped air in the cabinet will control the woofer cone excursion. The test, of course as mentioned, is to push in on the cone after it is installed in the cabinet. There should be considerable resistance to your doing so and when you release the cone, it should NOT immediately move back to its neutral position. There should be a definite delay as the air in the cabinet slowly replenishes and the cone is slowly pushed out.

Doug