• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

why does a large fullrange speaker sound special?

aidynphoenix

aidynphoenix

Super Member
i am listening to a full range 12" papercone woofer,, its really lightweight, and has the oldschool magnet design,, its very very low wattage..
i have not been able to identify it, it was origionally in a westinghouse console

now i admit. it does not have the bass i need, and the high end can be harsh at times..

but there is something special about what i am hearing out of these.


is it the efficiency? or the lack of a crossover? is the the weight/speed of the driver??

what usually makes a fullrange driver sound good?
 
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
Probably several things. One of them in my view would be the lack of any crossovers. What you are hearing might not be the loudest or deepest or highest however, it is very coherent.

I think I had a similar revelation as you when I replaced my 3-way Klipschorns with some 2-way speakers. With my Khorns, I knew that I had to stand 30 feet away from them (yes, I measured) and at that spot they were magical in their coherency....they were 'point source' speakers. When closer to them they were not one voice.

When I went to 2-way speakers, I could now get the same coherency when standing 10' away from them.

Although I don't think a single driver speaker would ever fill my lust for outrageous dymnamics, I think I DO get the lust for single driver systems with regard to their coherency.
 
is it the efficiency? or the lack of a crossover? is the the weight/speed of the driver??
Click to expand...
You could safely bet that all 3 of those factors are playing effective roles in what you're hearing as changing any of those factors to a significant degree will surely change what you hear. The debates begin at how much influence each factor has. But, you're traveling straight down the middle of the correct path with your questions/assumptions.:yes:
 
The lack of a crossover (and all the sound coming from ONE POINT in ONE DRIVER) can definitely contribute to a sense of "coherence". It's hard for a single driver to have gross variations in phase and timing... and unfortunately, very easy to have gross phase and time shifts in multi-way speakers with high-order crossover networks (which all add their own phase and time shifts to the signal).

The very best multi-way speakers also have this coherence, though. It's a matter of designing things so that the wavefronts from all the drivers are in phase and time with each other. Hard to do, but well worth it, IMHO. And it doesn't hurt if they're a coaxial/concentric design... having all the wavefronts aligned in space, as well as in time, is a plus... also, with a multi-way speaker, you have a much better chance of the dispersion/directivity of the speaker being much more uniform than with a single full-range driver (which, due to geometry, will have less dispersion (i,e. the sound will start to "beam like a flashlight" at higher frequencies, instead of propagating in all directions- which will result in a different balance of low-to-high-frequency output, depending on where you stand in angular relation to the speaker). This makes for a difference in the 'you are there' factor, at different places in the room- a properly-designed concentric two-way speaker is hard to beat in this department, IMHO...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Last edited:
It is the sound of one hand clapping.

I throw in with no crossover. The drawbacks are at the frequency extremes. The 12" will not move far enough, front to back, to produce deep bass. What it does produce will be extremely coherent. The 12" driver will not respond well to high frequencies. But it will have a gentle roll off and it won't sound completely cut off.

These are the drawbacks of any one way, versus two way or three way, speaker.

IMHO
 
Maybe you're hearing distortion you find pleasing. A fullrange driver will have higher distortion than a multi-way one.

Ole DJK calls it "gargling".
 
If you can get the T/S parameters on your drivers, you should consider a BSC circuit, which will make it put out more bass. A 12" full ranger probably rolls off about 8KHz or so, so a ribbon tweeter crossed in with a simple L-pad and capacitor should give you the highs youre looking for. I have 8" Fostex FE207s, while they dont pound they sound great. Mine also roll off between 12K and 13K, but the sound is so addicting.
 
Once fullrange speaker out of the piston mode, it appears such phase jumps, that multi-system did not dream.:)
At 12 "- is all, that is above 500 Hz.
Fullrange speaker sound special? - Special distortion.
 
BadassBob said:
If you can get the T/S parameters on your drivers, you should consider a BSC circuit, which will make it put out more bass. A 12" full ranger probably rolls off about 8KHz or so, so a ribbon tweeter crossed in with a simple L-pad and capacitor should give you the highs youre looking for. I have 8" Fostex FE207s, while they dont pound they sound great. Mine also roll off between 12K and 13K, but the sound is so addicting.
Click to expand...

Bob,

Most BSC passive circuits I've encountered, compensate for the bass by attenuating the higher frequencies to allow for a more balanced FR in the Baffle Step region. I may be missing something here, but the bass isn't actually boosted in passive solutions.

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
vuzh said:
Once fullrange speaker out of the piston mode, it appears such phase jumps, that multi-system did not dream.:)
At 12 "- is all, that is above 500 Hz.
Fullrange speaker sound special? - Special distortion.
Click to expand...

Vuzh,

This isn't very helpful, are you saying that a 12 inch driver will enter "break-up modes" above 500 Hz? It's possible that "a" particular 12 inch driver may be prone to this, but your overall assumption is truly ill founded.

You really need to hear a decent fullrange (actually extended range is more accurate) speaker before making a statement such as your last one. I've done both single driver and multi-way speakers and feel that each can be excellent. It really depends on what compromises you're willing to make. Distortion components are not the exclusive monopoly of one type of design over the other.

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
Coaxial speakers are "special" in the very important midrange, but as already noted, are lacking in deep bass and roll off too soon on the high end. They are also usually limited in dynamics (too much = too much distortion, but not always). A lot of people are perfectly content to luxuriate in what they do well, and don't mind the trade offs, but personally I'm never quite satisfied with them. Although in a way it sort of defeats the advantage of a near point-source, I think they are best when augmented with a subwoofer on the bottom and a supertweeter on top. Just my preference; YMMV.
 
TerryO said:
Bob,

Most BSC passive circuits I've encountered, compensate for the bass by attenuating the higher frequencies to allow for a more balanced FR in the Baffle Step region. I may be missing something here, but the bass isn't actually boosted in passive solutions.

Best Regards,
TerryO
Click to expand...

Youre absolutely correct, I forgot to add that part in earlier, as Im at work. The bass doesnt get boosted, but generally the higher frequencies past 500Hz or so may be attenuated by as much as -6dB, but usually along the lines of 2 to 3dB. This higher frequency attenuation gives the feel of more bass, when in reality, its lesser highs. Youre not losing any high end extension, theyre just quieter relative to the lower frequencies. This isnt necessarily a bad thing, but itll cost you some efficiency. Another thing the OP can try is moving the speakers closer to the wall, as in essence this will make a larger baffle, and give more bass. If you decide to employ a BSC circuit, the general rule of thumb is to have your speakers 2 to 3ft from the wall with ~3dB of attenuation.
 
Last edited:
I think that a factor which has not been mentioned yet is that we are not used to hear midrange being transduced by such a big cone, since most 2 and 3-way systems cross over to a tweeter or smaller mid around 1.5-2kHz. Many like it better this way. That, the point-source effect and the lack of midrange Xover should almost completely explain why fullrange drivers have such a good midrange performance.

And that is correct TerryO: BSC, whether line or at the speaker, acts as a shelf filter to reduce by an even amount all frequencies above a desired point, to compensate for them radiating into half space and thus being percieved anywhere up to 6dB stronger than the lower frequencies, which effectively radiate into full space.

Edit - BadassBob corrected himselft before I posted that last bit.

az
 
Last edited:
wow so much great knowledge here!
thanks guys. i dont think these will take the place of my advents, but i will definetly find a use for them.
 
What kind of amplification are you running with them? Single full-rangers loooooove single-ended tubes and t-amps :yes:.
 
T-amp is a type of high efficiency amplifier ("Class T") chipset developed originally by a (now defunct) company called Tripath.

A Westinghouse console might have Westinghouse drivers in it.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom