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Why is everyone so against electrolytic caps in crossovers?

89grand

89grand

Addicted Member
Banned
I mean there is thread after thread after thread of people saying to ditch the electrolytic caps and replace them with expensive alternatives. I understand that the electrolytic caps can dry out some over time, but it seems to take many many years. I can even understand replacing them, sure why not if you're already in the speakers and can solder, but why not just replace them with similar caps that were there in the first place?

I mean if the speakers sounded good when they were new, it makes more sense to me to try and keep them the same, using the same caps, electrolytic caps. For one, they are WAY cheaper, so if you need more than two, and many speakers do, other, non-electrolytic caps can get very expensive, and number two, so many of us here swap out speakers, sell some, get other ones, that most will probably never need to replace the caps again anyway, or even if you do, what 10-20 years down the line?

I'm considering swapping out the caps on my newly purchased Time Window 3's, and it's a fraction of the cost to use the original type electrolytics vs say Dayton metalized caps, and I'd be more closely following the original design to boot. I was listening to my Time Window 1's last night, and they're incredible, and yet they have original caps in the them, they're too hard to get into to bother, plus they sound great, and they're 30+ years old.

I know there are some rational thoughts on replacing the "lytics" but it seems to be more of a sheep thing, where everyone just keeps doing it because everyone keeps saying it without much if any data to back up the benefit.

Discuss
 
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Usually a little lower ESR and you would not have to change out the caps as often.
If that is worth the extra money then do it is what I say. If it is a whole lot more money then just replace with maybe a better quality electrolytic. That decision is up to the end user.
 
Because they believe expensive is better. Like the people that spend a small fortune on cables.

There's no problem upgrading small value tweeter caps with films from Dayton or Erse Audio. Anything that costs over $10, I go with electrolytics. They are still going to sound better than the 30 year old caps.

Lee.
 
Do it once. Do it right. Electrolytic caps are fine if they aren't in the signal path and shunt low frequencies to ground. Other than that I wouldn't use them.
 
Dr. Morbius said:
Do it once. Do it right. Electrolytic caps are fine if they aren't in the signal path and shunt low frequencies to ground. Other than that I wouldn't use them.
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See but that's thing, is "doing it right", doing it different than how they were originally designed? It might be, that's the question.

Almost all but the highest end speakers seem to use them when they were made, so is it right to do it the same way as the factory, or is doing it different right? I think just replacing old caps make the speaker sound better (when they do, I've had different results), and not necessarily because "better" caps were used. I have no data on this, but I haven't seen any data really at all that either confirms or proves wrong that "better" more expensive caps make an improvement over the factory caps. Not talking aging caps here, just one new one vs the other.
 
89grand said:
See but that's thing, is "doing it right", doing it different than how they were originally designed? It might be, that's the question.

Almost all but the highest end speakers seem to use them when they were made, so is it right to do it the same way as the factory, or is doing it different right? I think just replacing old caps make the speaker sound better (when they do, I've had different results), and not necessarily because "better" caps were used. I have no data on this, but I haven't seen any data really at all that either confirms or proves wrong that "better" more expensive caps make an improvement over the factory caps. Not talking aging caps here, just one new one vs the other.
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One thing to remember is that the original designers had to design a whole system, and they usually had a price point to hit as well. If using electrolytics with the ESR available saved a resistor, then that's what they did. Low loss electrolytics were available but also did cost more. For most vintage speakers, the cost of using film caps, and resistors if they needed damping or attenuation added extra cost when cost was an issue.

Also, if the speakers were designed with electrolytics (especially for high cap values where volumetric and capacity efficiency vs. cost was needed), and they sounded "good" to great, then fine, the design was finalized. At that time, film caps in speakers weren't used much, but then crossover design wasn't all that sophisticated either, at least till the Jung-Marsh articles on picking caps really opened the doors. If the designer felt there was an advantage to using film caps, he had to balance that out to the bean counters about the added cost potentially eating into profit, or moving the speaker into another price tier against other competition.

Also, another factor is that practically no speaker makers felt their speakers would be used much more than 5-10 years before being discarded for the next latest greatest. They didn't have much reliability data for electrolytics anywhere (electronics or speakers) and I don't think that was going to be an issue for them. If you wanted them to "fix" your speaker's crossover, they probably would suggest to get new, rather than refurbish.

It is interesting to note that only a few manufacturers used film caps - JBL for most of their higher end crossovers, but a lot of regular vintage speakers used mylars, Dahlquist and the DQ-10's for sure, higher end Infinity, and the BBC LS3/5a which used film caps exclusively, due to their closer tolerances and consistency. In their design phase, they could have used anything, and the research team chose film caps, 6 or more of them.

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Note that posts above cite cost also as a primary reason. Voicing issues aside, that is an echo of the original design choice. But if you could get better "sound" even with a bit more expense, what would you choose??
 
I've always been a do it right the first time guy. And in most cases that meant stock or better parts. My wife's Jeep for example gets the best brakes you can buy when I do a brake job. In this hobby for example I recently re-capped a pair of Optimus 5's. I used electrolytic caps because they were inexpensive(6 caps 6 bucks) and I'm only into the speakers for a total of $38. They do sound miles better but inexpensive speakers do not require expensive caps. When I find my be all and end all set I will pop for better ones but only what the budget will allow. Please keep in mind this my opinion and my opinion alone but I have no desire to keep up with the Joneses be it with caps or anything else in my little world.
 
Dr. Morbius said:
Do it once. Do it right. Electrolytic caps are fine if they aren't in the signal path and shunt low frequencies to ground. Other than that I wouldn't use them.
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Ah, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Shunt caps can have at least as much effect on the signal as pass caps, often more.

The scientific truth is that caps add distortion when:

1- They have audio voltage drop across them. (This is hard to explain to non-engineers.) Filter and crossover caps have audio voltage across them when they are operating near the crossover or filter frequency. Less so above and below. Coupling caps should never have audio voltage drop on them. Etc.

2- They are operating at freqs where their Z is comparable to related source and loud impedances.

But, people vastly over-state the problem with 'lytics. With the exception of a giant fraud concerning motherboard caps a few years ago, any decent electrolytic from the last 20 years should have few problems with longevity, esr, resonance, microphonics, distortion, etc.

-k
 
i used all lytics to recap my crossover, and im loving it. i say if the design calls fot them might as well use them. i would rather have the same put in as taken out as close as possible, i was affraid of poly caps would change the sound from what the desingers wanted.
 
ken kantor said:
Ah, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Shunt caps can have at least as much effect on the signal as pass caps, often more.

The scientific truth is that caps add distortion when:

1- They have audio voltage drop across them. (This is hard to explain to non-engineers.) Filter and crossover caps have audio voltage across them when they are operating near the crossover or filter frequency. Less so above and below. Coupling caps should never have audio voltage drop on them. Etc.

2- They are operating at freqs where their Z is comparable to related source and loud impedances.

But, people vastly over-state the problem with 'lytics. With the exception of a giant fraud concerning motherboard caps a few years ago, any decent electrolytic from the last 20 years should have few problems with longevity, esr, resonance, microphonics, distortion, etc.

-k
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Seems to me, in part following your logic, that unless one plans to keep their speakers for 20-30 years (or more) and fully expects their hearing NOT to deteriorate, then by all means "upgrade", but really, given the better quality of today's caps (including much tighter tolerances) replacing lytics with lytics isn't a bad idea at all.

On lesser expensive caps I've gone with film, but honestly every speaker I've rebuilt crossovers in have all improved and many used new lytics. I can't complain, and I for one have hearing that IS deteriorating, so I'm enjoying what good hearing I have left and not worrying about something I can't measure with my ears.
 
Seems to me, film caps had humongous voltage ratings back in the day, which tended to make electrolytics a closer electrical match to the crossovers. The lower ratings available today and more in demand are a fairly recent development - maybe the last 10 years or so ...

Electrolytics are a LOT closer tolerance now as well. Caps can also have a specific "sound" ... which explains maybe the ridiculous prices on vintage "bumblebees" for old school guitar amps and pedals.

Given all that, best bet is probably to just stick with as close a match as possible to what was in the original design and spec.
 
It is just one of those thangs... Film for mids and tweets , electrolytic for woofers

IMO - the better the driver/speaker the more noticeable it is
 
Frank Sol said:
It is just one of those thangs... Film for mids and tweets , electrolytic for woofers

IMO - the better the driver/speaker the more noticeable it is
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BTW--- I have a vested interest in the reality that film caps sound better :D

I used Mundorf silver & oil caps in my Fortes' XOs :scratch2:

:lmao:
 
I tend to agree with the OP, in that the film caps will have a lower ESR than the original NP cap, and so will sound *different*. Is different always better? I dunno, do you want to second-guess the speaker designer?

One problem I've had is that I've pulled caps out and replaced them, only to find the the old caps still measured just fine. I'm not convinced that an ESR meter intended for small-signal caps stresses the caps enough to really determine if the caps are REALLY good or not, but that's a topic for another thread.
 
If I'm designing a speaker I use films wherever possible. The problem is if you need 150 uF, electrolytics are a more convenient and cost effective choice, though I suppose there's no limit to how many films one can parallel. There are also motor caps that might be a good choice. I do believe if you blindly change out electrolytics for films in an already voiced finished design, you'll change the sound. You may think it sounds better and it very well might, but it's different than designed.

As for aging, we all know that drivers are incredibly stable and don't change parameters at all over 20-30 years of service life. Not.
 
Just guessing... If you were to ask a speaker designer would he rather use film or electrolytic caps for the mids & tweets I dont think he would choose electrolytic
 
Why not try a simple experiment with the smallest value cap, for your tweeter.
Buy the cheapest Polypropylene or Mylar capacitor you can find and do your own personal cap shootout v.s. the new electrolytic. After the proper break in period see if you can hear any difference either good or bad. All scientific data aside, it really all comes down to what sounds good to your ears. :D
 
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