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Why the Buzz with LP's?

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blackfly

blackfly

Fidelius Claritus
Now that I am entering the world of high end hifi, I am somewhat puzzled by why the LP gets so much attention and favourable press. Now, before you rant some of my background.

I am 36, and the start of my audio passion the main medium was cassette. Simply, the cassette was easy to use, players easy to find and the ability of a youngster to handle a turntable and tonearm was not available. The first tonearm I ever touched I broke (I think the stylus). I never bought any LPs as I had no player and started my listening with the cassette tape, which I admit was okay but by todays standard not great. As I grew up I aspired to the CD. SO: my background never included LPs so it is understandable that I am somewhat indifferent towards them.

That said, I am wondering why anyone today loves them, and still considers them a reference source, especially in the high end.

Compared to a CD, the LP needs METICULOUS CARE, cleaning and NO SCRATCHES to ensure the best possible sound. A slight surface scratch on a CD is nothing. A GOOD CD player can be had for $2000, and is considered a fair amount and reasonable in the high end world. The sound out of a 2K CD player compared to a $200 one is real and noticeable. But to get REALLY good sound out of an LP, if the LP is not scratched or anything, is astronomical. In fact, I think the greatest robbery in hifi is the modern turntable and tonearm. The amount one can spend (and many do) on the set is a testiment, to me anyway, that if such money is needed to justify the sound then the LP cannot be that good. I know of tonearms that are 4k+ and turntables factors more. I can buy a whole system for that.


The LP is analogue I know, but most modern music is not pressed, so much of the LP catalogue is in the past. Hard to replace. With modern digitization of the recording, most anything can be done (do not get into loudness wars, I am aware of this). Modern technology makes recordings better, something a 30 year old LP cannot benefit from. The sound is only as good as on the recording.

Plus, the LP is a PHYSICAL medium, in that something actually touches its surface to get the sound. No matter how good, EVENTUALLY the sound will deteriorate, not so with the CD. Providing the CD does not rot (AFAIK not an issue anymore) it will sound as good decades down the road.

Now, I am aware many grew up with LPs and thus have vast collections, and I understand these folks who have such numbers that, yes, I could justify a good turntable and tonearm. But for the rest, who have little or no LPs and no reason to get any, why the fuss? Many in the high end world feel, with all the kilobuck gear, that the LP is better. But lets get to the facts:

Does the LP have a greater dynamic range? Does it have a greater frequency range? Does it last?

Compared to a CD, the LP must be flat, perfectly round and have no physical issues otherwise the sound is poor. As long as a CD is clean all is good.

The CD can provide all the dynamic range, loudness and frequency response as needed.

I admit I have heard many LPs played on less than stellar systems. Not very impressive. But I HAVE heard, only a few times, a good LP system with companion gear and the results are excellent. But I have never mistaken it for LP. There is a sound to the LP, some perhaps prefer it and are accustomed to it, that is unmistakable to someone not raised on them.

I suppose it is analagous to someone raised on MP3 compressed music compared to fully digital uncompressed masters.

But if anyone can help me understand the LP thing, please help me out. As my high end system grow I would not be opposed to getting a turntable and tonearm, but most of the music I listen to is not on LP nor issued on it. This alone makes justification hard.
 
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If you have nice gear and its properly setup, the sound quality is right on par with a CD, if not better. Plus myself and a lot of guys love the "mechanicals" of a TT that you cant get from a CD player. Just my .02
 
I have a $2K cdp, a Lector, and about the same in a turntable/cart/tonearm/phono stage, and the best cds come close to the good albums. The best albums are another step up from there. This is from a system that did not cost exorbitant sums.

I have heard other systems, better matched, in rooms tuned for playback, for more money, and the sound was, in a word, compelling. It captivated me, engaged me, and transported me.

You haven't listed your location in your profile. There might be someone, nearby, who can give you a demonstration of what a decent analogue front end can do.
 
blackfly said:
But to get REALLY good sound out of an LP, if the LP is not scratched or anything, is astronomical. In fact, I think the greatest robbery in hifi is the modern turntable and tonearm. The amount one can spend (and many do) on the set is a testiment, to me anyway, that if such money is needed to justify the sound then the LP cannot be that good. I know of tonearms that are 4k+ and turntables factors more. I can buy a whole system for that.
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I understand that you have no experience with vinyl, so I'm going to tell you flat out that this statement is wrong. Granted, my turntable setup is probably around $2k or more, but it includes two excellent turntables (one vintage and one new), and very high-quality cartridges. It sounds incredible. You're probably about to get a lot of responses in this thread from people who have amazing-sounding vinyl setups that they paid barely a few hundred dollars for. My point is that, in my opinion and experience, it's actually much easier and cost-effective to get a far superior sound out of vinyl.

This debate has appeared on AK about five million times, and some of us are getting a little tired of repeating ourselves. There are pros and cons, like the care and cleaning needed to keep vinyl in good condition and get the most out of it, plus the skills needed to properly set up a turntable, but to us it's well worth it when you hear the end result.
 
Mr. Lin said:
I understand that you have no experience with vinyl, so I'm going to tell you flat out that this statement is wrong. Granted, my turntable setup is probably around $2k or more, but it includes two excellent turntables (one vintage and one new), and very high-quality cartridges. It sounds incredible. You're probably about to get a lot of responses in this thread from people who have amazing-sounding vinyl setups that they paid barely a few hundred dollars for. My point is that, in my opinion and experience, it's actually much easier and cost-effective to get a far superior sound out of vinyl.

This debate has appeared on AK about five million times, and some of us are getting a little tired of repeating ourselves. There are pros and cons, like the care and cleaning needed to keep vinyl in good condition and get the most out of it, plus the skills needed to properly set up a turntable, but to us it's well worth it when you hear the end result.
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Well said!!:thmbsp:
 
I don't need an expensive TT to enjoy my records. I guess my TT's are worth a couple hundred down. None are newer than 30 years old though. And something you really loose on CD as opposed to vinyl has nothing to do with music. ALBUM ARTWORK! I think your standards have been set to high to begin with. I enjoy hunting for and collecting unusual, and rare vinyl. It's like mining for gold. And to think what you use to have to pay for vinyl, and now you can find great stuff for a buck or less. That's why the younger generation wants them. They say they sound better. And in many cases they do. But I also think it's retro, and the cost factor. And it's taken a generation to come of age to infuse life back into this hobby. That and EPay. I still can't believe what can be found for almost nothing. And I mean rare stuff.
 
I cannot answer for the folks out there that are just starting their collections but as one that had a good collection and continues to add to it I will say this much.

I actually enjoy the extra fuss when playing vinyl. It connects me to the experience and I enjoy the tactile sensation of the vinyl. I have albums I've owned for 30 years that I recognize every imperfection, every pop and click and those bring back memories as much as the music does. I enjoy the fuss of cleaning them, caring for them. I know it sounds odd but I see vinyl in a more animate way than my CDs. I do care for my CD collection because just like the vinyl, there is history in those plastic cases.

As for the investments required to play vinyl, it's really all about balance and symmetry. You would be surprised how well some older tables sounds when set up properly. True, you will only get the maximum from an LP when played on a quality table, but you do not need to spend your kid's college fund to find audio nirvana.
 
It took me a while to figure it out. I have a Technics SL 1200 and a Stanton EEE. With proper set up and some good cleaning methods for my records, a good LP sounds better than my CDs can. One of these days I'll upgrade my cart, but the EEE can make some great sounds.

I'm not a lot older than you. I'm surprised that you didn't grow up with LPs. Cassettes were a big deal when I was younger, but they never sounded very good next to LPs even on cheap gear. Plus, I could make better cassettes from LPs than the pre-recorded stuff even on my cheap gear back in the day.

Hope you enjoy your gear and hopefully you'll discover the joys of LPs (and cheap music from thrift stores!) one of these days.

Take care,

Ed
 
I have to say, I am in the boat that CD's have the potential to sound better, if the mastering is done right. A well mastered CD sounds amazing, but (to my ears, and even tough I have a great CD player and only a mediocre vinyl setup) the mastering on vinyl seems to be better. Like the people who did it loved what they were doing and put their heart into it. Now, my dad has some early CD's that are from before the loudness war started and I have to say, they sound amazing, better than any of my vinyl (again, my set up is mediocre at best), but those are only a few CD's. I have some newer ones that I try to listen too and can't get through more than about one track before I want to turn it off, and not because I don't like the song. Now, if I could buy CD's for as cheep as I can get records and they were mastered as well, I would be listening to CD's, but I can't.

Also, the frequency range on records is actually larger then that of a CD. Also, records are a lot more durable then people give them credit. There are only a couple out of the 4 or 500 records that I have that I would deem unplayable and unsaleable.

Also, I am only 18 and just started listening to records about 4 months ago. So I came in with ears accustomed to CDs.
 
If there are 4K dollar tonearms and even a lot more, its because the LP has so much info to be retrieved. thats actually a testament to the LP...if the LP wasnt worth it, there most likely wouldnt be such extravagant hardware.

The best CD/SACD I had was a modded SCD-777ES, and I didnt think it was that much better than my Parasound CDP-2000.
 
Even when my wife is upstairs, she can tell the difference in sound between an album and a CD.. not much comparison... She called me on sneeking in a CD this morning..

Buy a table and a couple albums.. you'll understand..
 
i totoally agree

Mr. Lin said:
I understand that you have no experience with vinyl, so I'm going to tell you flat out that this statement is wrong. Granted, my turntable setup is probably around $2k or more, but it includes two excellent turntables (one vintage and one new), and very high-quality cartridges. It sounds incredible. You're probably about to get a lot of responses in this thread from people who have amazing-sounding vinyl setups that they paid barely a few hundred dollars for. My point is that, in my opinion and experience, it's actually much easier and cost-effective to get a far superior sound out of vinyl.

This debate has appeared on AK about five million times, and some of us are getting a little tired of repeating ourselves. There are pros and cons, like the care and cleaning needed to keep vinyl in good condition and get the most out of it, plus the skills needed to properly set up a turntable, but to us it's well worth it when you hear the end result.
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100% i wouldnt trade my t.t. for anything in the world:no::no: so very well said. i use mine every sunday. its my spinning day.its really just how you wanna hear the sound too
 
im 33 soon to be 34 the end of this month, an as far back as i can remember
ive always loved a decent t.t. i agree with the others see if you can listen too one set up correctly. the truth is? ya never kno an ak'er may live down the road from you. get to know us through the furums, an one other secret place in here.

keep this in mind also, spring is here an alot of the members have get togthers an cook outs. which means a lot of stereo geeks like myself,
have fun listen to tunes an other members set-ups. so what i can tell you is sit back an hold on to ur ass! its gonna be a long fun ride!!! what i will say though is that ive got a mid priced t.t. that i got from a fellow ak'er. a pioneer
pl12d its decent sounding an i love it. would i love to have a thorens td165 you bet ur bottom i do!!!! but im happy. vinyl is just another form of music
history. an im doin my part to keep it alive

WOW!!! i finally made some sense lol
 
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To me LP's are intimate, they have soul. They connect me to the music in ways cd's and MP3's have never be able to. Digital music has almost become disposable, it lacks personality, it's lifeless.
I'd rather have 100 great LP's than a bloody cell phone or HD with 10,000 songs.

Besides, you can't do this with cd's and MP3's :) LP's are just damn cool :thmbsp:

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X25
Mastering has always been an art form. I think the CD has allowed engineers to get lazy. Having sat in on many recording sessions I can say that when done right, LPs equal Cds. This is my opinion only so please do not take offense or think it is law. I just love the analog sound that an lp provides and frankly I think it is mechanical in nature. Not sure, but it seems that breaking everything into little bits may take its toll. I do like Cds but to me thay sound their best when run though a tubed DAC. Again please understand that this us IMO.
I am a bit older than you and used to really really enjoy new music day for albums at the local store. I remember very strongly waiting outside for the dimestore to open so I could buy my first copy of Sgt. Peppers. I could open the gatefold and read everything. The feel, the smell, all of it is just tactile and the way I like it.
 
Since the subject has been brought up here I must ask. Does it really take a 2k CD player to get high quality CD sound? Also would like to ask what type of music do you primarily listen to?
 
I'm 22 and have been in love with vinyl for about six years. I have a very cheap setup - a used Marantz turntable I found in my uncle's attic connected to a low-end system. Most of the albums I play are $1.00 specials that I found in dusty old stores.

For me, it's the experience. The care and setup that you see as a burden is a wonderful ritual to me. I really think good music should be an event, something you have to sit down and listen to.

As for sound, I'd say comparing it to CD's is largely apples to oranges. At least at my price level, it's a matter of preference and trade-offs. Do you prefer perfectly tight bass lines or warm, natural sounding vocals? Are you bothered more by the hiss that often accompanies many digital re-masters or by the snap crackle pop of less-than-perfect vinyl? I listen to classic rock, so the decision is easy for me. For instance, there's an awful hiss to any Beatles CD that is just hard to get over.

For new music, I'm most often unable to discern a real quality difference between CD and record. I have the White Stripes latest album on LP, and it sounds as quiet and powerful as their digital recordings.

I think two factors more than any other has fed the "LP bubble" among the younger set. First, new CD's have become prohibitively expensive. I'm not going to buy a Steve Miller album for $15 when I can find one in good condition for $0.50 at a used record store. Second, the free music that my peers and I often download is of terrible quality. There is absolutely no comparison between compressed audio and LP. Even a dirty, scratched record provides better sound.
 
Vinyl records were improved upon , SQ-wise , through virtually their entire existence. Not so with CDs. With the loudness wars raging currently , and the advent of hard-drive based sources , CDs will probably never equal the SQ of good vinyl. CDs were not originally intended to be a "reference" source. If they didn't skip like an album in the car all was cool. Of course , they never really cured that problem either. ;)
 
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