Why would Audio Note use these electrolytics capacitors in their crossovers?...

[Pabloaguas]

So, ummm... I just opened up my Audio Note AN-K SPe speakers. These are probably 20-25 years old. Although the inductors look beefy, I found these tiny little electrolytic capacitors (see photos).

So, these are speakers that now retail for $5665. I know with the inexpensive drivers they probably only cost a couple hundred dollars or less of AN to manufacture- most of the money is in baltic birch and veneer. I was thinking that there would be some beautiful tin foil AN caps inside, but to find electrolytics, was really a shock?

So, the question is, 'is there any reason for this other than more profits for PQ?' or would PQ have some eloquently marketed reason for the cheap eletrolytics being a better match to the speaker? Really surprised and baffled by this...

So, the second question is: Should I replace these with budget MKPs? I'm thinking Obbligatos or the such...?

 

[BmWr75]

Lower cost

 

[RossW]

Almost all speakers, regardless of cost, have electrolytics in the crossover. They're significantly cheaper and smaller than film caps. They have a finite life, but it's plenty good enough for how long most original owners will keep the speakers.

 

[vinylkid58]

I was thinking that there would be some beautiful tin foil AN caps inside, but to find electrolytics, was really a shock?

Welcome to reality.

jeff

 

[theophile]

They wanted customers to pay for upgrades....

 

[trinhsman]

Looks very much like an old Snell crossover for one of their smaller speakers. Kind of sad when you consider the price point of Audio Note speakers.

 

[Tom Brennan]

Is it demonstrable that more expensive caps would make the speaker sound better? If you have faith in the designer's ability and taste and like the speaker's sound (and have faith in your own taste) don't fret about it.

 

[knotscott]

Is it demonstrable that more expensive caps would make the speaker sound better? If you have faith in the designer's ability and taste and like the speaker's sound (and have faith in your own taste) don't fret about it.

On a high res system with experienced listeners, very likely.

 

[DesertRatt]

They are non-polarized electrolytic. I've known several engineers who INSIST it is the best solution for crossovers. One of those engineers was Roy Cizek who refused to use film caps in crossovers. I'm not supporting the argument one way or the other.
Audio Note are perfectionists. I really don't think they are trying to save $3.

 

[absolve2525]

So, ummm... I just opened up my Audio Note AN-K SPe speakers. These are probably 20-25 years old. Although the inductors look beefy, I found these tiny little electrolytic capacitors (see photos).

So, these are speakers that now retail for $5665. I know with the inexpensive drivers they probably only cost a couple hundred dollars or less of AN to manufacture- most of the money is in baltic birch and veneer. I was thinking that there would be some beautiful tin foil AN caps inside, but to find electrolytics, was really a shock?

So, the question is, 'is there any reason for this other than more profits for PQ?' or would PQ have some eloquently marketed reason for the cheap eletrolytics being a better match to the speaker? Really surprised and baffled by this...

So, the second question is: Should I replace these with budget MKPs? I'm thinking Obbligatos or the such...?

View attachment 3296900View attachment 3296901View attachment 3296903

I agree with the other poster, this looks like what Snell would to do to fine tune their crossovers. If they're older speakers now, may as well replace them with the same type that was in there before.

 

[elitopus]

When they designed and built these speakers I’d be willing to bet they had both a “high res” system to test them on, and “experienced listeners”. They most likely tried out different caps and chose the NPE because they sounded better in these speakers.

 

[Tom Brennan]

When they designed and built these speakers I’d be willing to bet they had both a “high res” system to test them on, and “experienced listeners”.

I've been listening all my life. That's 75 years experience.

 

[GordonW]

I will say- as an anecdotal note- from my experience working with Snell speakers- changing cap types RARELY improves the sound. In fact, whenever I rebuild a Snell crossover- I always go back with higher quality caps, of the SAME TYPE as the originals. And even maintain, as closely as possible, the values of individual caps inside of cap bundles (bundling two, even 3 caps in parallel, is very common in these crossovers). I've seen Snells with combinations of electrolytic, mylar and polypropylene caps, in the same crossover- and even combinations of two different cap types in parallel (i.e, a mylar in parallel with a poly)- and the voicing ONLY worked as-designed, when all of those were maintained, value and type, in every position in the crossover.

While you may (or may not like) the effect of using "better" cap types in these crossovers- you will no longer have a speaker, that performs as Peter Snell and/or the AN people intended. If you can do as good or better job of voicing than him/them- then more power to you. But if not- maybe it's better to stick with the original configuration.

To be fair- I have not personally dealt with the exact model speaker in question here. But, I have dealt with quite a few others in those lineups-and this is what I have consistently observed with those. Just don't be surprised, if an "upgrade", isn't...

Just something to keep in mind...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[trinhsman]

I will say- as an anecdotal note- from my experience working with Snell speakers- changing cap types RARELY improves the sound. In fact, whenever I rebuild a Snell crossover- I always go back with higher quality caps, of the SAME TYPE as the originals. And even maintain, as closely as possible, the values of individual caps inside of cap bundles (bundling two, even 3 caps in parallel, is very common in these crossovers). I've seen Snells with combinations of electrolytic, mylar and polypropylene caps, in the same crossover- and even combinations of two different cap types in parallel (i.e, a mylar in parallel with a poly)- and the voicing ONLY worked as-designed, when all of those were maintained, value and type, in every position in the crossover.

While you may (or may not like) the effect of using "better" cap types in these crossovers- you will no longer have a speaker, that performs as Peter Snell and/or the AN people intended. If you can do as good or better job of voicing than him/them- then more power to you. But if not- maybe it's better to stick with the original configuration.

To be fair- I have not personally dealt with the exact model speaker in question here. But, I have dealt with quite a few others in those lineups-and this is what I have consistently observed with those. Just don't be surprised, if an "upgrade", isn't...

Just something to keep in mind...

Regards,
Gordon.

Gordon did exactly this with my highly modified E II’s. I would put them up against anything in the 5,000 dollar range.
Note the Audio Note woofers and tweeters.

 

[Lavane]

I will say- as an anecdotal note- from my experience working with Snell speakers- changing cap types RARELY improves the sound. In fact, whenever I rebuild a Snell crossover- I always go back with higher quality caps, of the SAME TYPE as the originals. And even maintain, as closely as possible, the values of individual caps inside of cap bundles (bundling two, even 3 caps in parallel, is very common in these crossovers). I've seen Snells with combinations of electrolytic, mylar and polypropylene caps, in the same crossover- and even combinations of two different cap types in parallel (i.e, a mylar in parallel with a poly)- and the voicing ONLY worked as-designed, when all of those were maintained, value and type, in every position in the crossover.

While you may (or may not like) the effect of using "better" cap types in these crossovers- you will no longer have a speaker, that performs as Peter Snell and/or the AN people intended. If you can do as good or better job of voicing than him/them- then more power to you. But if not- maybe it's better to stick with the original configuration.

To be fair- I have not personally dealt with the exact model speaker in question here. But, I have dealt with quite a few others in those lineups-and this is what I have consistently observed with those. Just don't be surprised, if an "upgrade", isn't...

Just something to keep in mind...

Regards,
Gordon.

It's Klipsch I think?, that uses a lot of mylar caps in there crossovers.
I've read several posts here and on other forums claiming mylar isn't the best choise for a film cap in the signal path. And I've seen posts of pictures of these crossovers being "upgraded" with poly propylene film caps, foil in oil caps, PIO's,.etc. Obviously the mylar caps were chosen for a reason by this company. I dought they were trying to save a few cents per cap compared to say, polypropylene caps. And some of these crossovers have a hand full of these mylar caps too.

 

[GordonW]

It's Klipsch I think?, that uses a lot of mylar caps in there crossovers.
I've read several posts here and on other forums claiming mylar isn't the best choise for a film cap in the signal path. And I've seen posts of pictures of these crossovers being "upgraded" with poly propylene film caps, foil in oil caps, PIO's,.etc. Obviously the mylar caps were chosen for a reason by this company. I dought they were trying to save a few cents per cap compared to say, polypropylene caps. And some of these crossovers have a hand full of these mylar caps too.

Well.... my comments apply to the Snell and AN speakers in question. They're built to a level of precision, that's somewhat rare in the speaker industry. Parts individually trimmed matched, and such, in each speaker.

Some brands are more amenable to improvements, by cap changes and other mods, than others. You really have to take it on a brand by brand, case by case basis.

Klipsch is one of those brands, where there's probably more room for successful modification than Snell, in general. Klipsch was sometimes known for "practical economization" in his speaker designs. Unless something made a really big improvement for the price, Klipsch did have a penchant for using inexpensive but good components, instead- which can leave room for successful tweaking,, after the fact. There's also a much more robust aftermarket industry and modder community for Klipsch, that's been around a long time- and sometimes have even collaborated with Klipsch engineers. That leads to more viable mods.

In the case here- Audio Note is about the only company that really does Snell mods in a comprehensive way- the sandbox for mods is a lot smaller, in terms of pre-made, pre-tested improvements. Just keep that in mind- it will likely be harder to improve a Snell/AN product, than many other brands...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[Pabloaguas]

I just have to say that I am so grateful for all the accumulated knowledge here. I really can't do it (right) without y'all.

So, I measured the pair of tweeter caps... (together) they have drifted from the stated value of 8.0uF to 7.9uF, and the ESR (in parallel) at 1kHz is 1.2 ohms! That high ESR must be an indication that they are going bad?

Well after consideration of, y'alls comments here, it seems that it would be best to go with NPE for replacements. ...now its just a matter of figuring out which ones to use with witch values. Seems there are not a lot of options in these small values. I would need 2.2, 3.3, 4.7 and 10 microfarads if I am to replace the exact values. Seems I'll have to mix and match brands in order to match the values.

 

[toddalin]

While you may (or may not like) the effect of using "better" cap types in these crossovers- you will no longer have a speaker, that performs as Peter Snell and/or the AN people intended. If you can do as good or better job of voicing than him/them- then more power to you. But if not- maybe it's better to stick with the original configuration.

However, when these speakers were "voiced" at the factory, they were voiced in the factory setting using the factory equipment which are both undoubtedly different than the OPs listening room and equipment. This is NOT to say that the OP will do "better" if the listening room/equipment are similar to the factory, but may well do so in his setting. Only experimentation would tell.

So, I measured the pair of tweeter caps... (together) they have drifted from the stated value of 8.0uF to 7.9uF

No, this is well within factory tolerance (1.27%) for even the best capacitors. They probably matched the values just to get this close.

Anyway, these are electrolytic caps and I would bet that when you measured them, they were not at the stated temperature.

 

[ConradH]

I just have to say that I am so grateful for all the accumulated knowledge here. I really can't do it (right) without y'all.

So, I measured the pair of tweeter caps... (together) they have drifted from the stated value of 8.0uF to 7.9uF, and the ESR (in parallel) at 1kHz is 1.2 ohms! That high ESR must be an indication that they are going bad?

Well after consideration of, y'alls comments here, it seems that it would be best to go with NPE for replacements. ...now its just a matter of figuring out which ones to use with witch values. Seems there are not a lot of options in these small values. I would need 2.2, 3.3, 4.7 and 10 microfarads if I am to replace the exact values. Seems I'll have to mix and match brands in order to match the values.

People have become so attached to ESR I no longer call it a fad, but it's not doing anybody any service. It's hard to look at the series resistance number alone and know if it's good or bad. Worry about ESR if you're designing switching power supplies. Work with dissipation factor for just about everything else. 8 uF, 1 kHz and 1.2 ohms is a dissipation factor of 0.06 and there's nothing wrong with that. As for the "drift" from 8 to 7.9 uF, it likely hasn't drifted at all, and was about 7.9 when installed.

 

[Pabloaguas]

Ok, got it. Just try to keep it as original as possible.

So the ALCAPs are no longer in production, the Monacor's seem to be available on their website, and the light blue capacitor I don't now what it is without ungluing it.