Wilson Audio Sophia 3 Question

[Dr. Pseudo]

Dear friends,

I have recently found the chance to upgrade my speakers to a pair of Wilson Audio Sophia 3's. They are driven by a McIntosh MA8000 (300w p/ch SS amp). Although the details in music, huge dynamics and being able to hear more layers in music have been a stunning experience for me with the Sophias, I am a little troubled in a very basic area of stereo image reproduction.

The speakers are 7 feet apart and the listening position is approx 9 feet. However, due to limited space the speakers have to sit less than a foot to the back and side walls (I have installed Vicoustic Flexi wall treatments on back and side of the speakers) The speakers are on spikes and currently toed in 15 degrees. (I have experimented with 0-25 degrees toeing in). I listen to mostly Rock and Jazz music.

I feel like the center image/presence/focus/impact is not strong enough in some recordings. It feels like the vocals are too laid back when there comes a loud orchestral/dynamic passage. It just feels like I need to pay more attention to understand/decode what the vocalist is saying... In vocal-oriented music, Jazz audiophile recordings, etc, there is no such problem, yet sometimes I still feel like the vocal is not pinpoint center but a little dispersed in between the speakers. The traditional solution would be to toe in the speakers more, but then Sophias on direct axis tend to draw attention to themselves, which make the sound coming from left and right more apparent, contradicting with my purpose of strengthening the center image. It just feels like the sound is diffused - perhaps too wide soundstage than I'm accustomed to... I don't think I have trouble with boomy bass which curtain the mids by the way. I am sure the room acoustics are in play here, yet I did not have a similar experience with the B&W 804 speakers I have used in the same place before, they have had strong center fill, pinpoint phantom image in the center with a decent soundstage. I feel like the Sophias are rendering much more information from music, they offer higher resolution and transparency yet I cannot get them to sing as they are supposed to - missing some of the very basic attributes in stereo. I knew that Wilsons are picky in room setup but I have been experimenting for days and don't have an alternative space to move my hi-fi.

I'll appreciate any comments and suggestions.

Thank you.

 

[crouse]

Is there anything between the speakers, such as an equipment rack or piece of furniture? That may be causing reflections that muddy the sound.

 

[bhunter]

Those are great speakers; however, I've never listened to a pair that close to the room boundaries. Have you tried changing your listening position distance? Also, does it happen on well recorded material or only on studio generated soundstages? You could try seeing if you get proper imaging near field and then expand out to see where you lose the image.

 

[for_p1]

Dear friends,

I have recently found the chance to upgrade my speakers to a pair of Wilson Audio Sophia 3's. They are driven by a McIntosh MA8000 (300w p/ch SS amp). Although the details in music, huge dynamics and being able to hear more layers in music have been a stunning experience for me with the Sophias, I am a little troubled in a very basic area of stereo image reproduction.

The speakers are 7 feet apart and the listening position is approx 9 feet. However, due to limited space the speakers have to sit less than a foot to the back and side walls (I have installed Vicoustic Flexi wall treatments on back and side of the speakers) The speakers are on spikes and currently toed in 15 degrees. (I have experimented with 0-25 degrees toeing in). I listen to mostly Rock and Jazz music.

I feel like the center image/presence/focus/impact is not strong enough in some recordings. It feels like the vocals are too laid back when there comes a loud orchestral/dynamic passage. It just feels like I need to pay more attention to understand/decode what the vocalist is saying... In vocal-oriented music, Jazz audiophile recordings, etc, there is no such problem, yet sometimes I still feel like the vocal is not pinpoint center but a little dispersed in between the speakers. The traditional solution would be to toe in the speakers more, but then Sophias on direct axis tend to draw attention to themselves, which make the sound coming from left and right more apparent, contradicting with my purpose of strengthening the center image. It just feels like the sound is diffused - perhaps too wide soundstage than I'm accustomed to... I don't think I have trouble with boomy bass which curtain the mids by the way. I am sure the room acoustics are in play here, yet I did not have a similar experience with the B&W 804 speakers I have used in the same place before, they have had strong center fill, pinpoint phantom image in the center with a decent soundstage. I feel like the Sophias are rendering much more information from music, they offer higher resolution and transparency yet I cannot get them to sing as they are supposed to - missing some of the very basic attributes in stereo. I knew that Wilsons are picky in room setup but I have been experimenting for days and don't have an alternative space to move my hi-fi.

I'll appreciate any comments and suggestions.

Thank you.

You can try to move speakers a foot or two closer to listening position to see if it will help or not. Then you may move them close to each other a bit too. In tight space every small change matters. Though it is very possible that Wilson's simply need more space. You may try to add more acoustic panels on a wall behind speakers or side walls at reflection points.

But in limited space you have to be very careful choosing speakers. I know for sure that B&W 802D would work in mid field (I sit 8 feet from them in my room), but I never tried to be that close to a Wilson's pair.

 

[JoeESP9]

You said you have acoustic treatments at the sides of the speakers. Ideally, acoustic treatment panels should be at the first reflection points.

 

[Dr. Pseudo]

Is there anything between the speakers, such as an equipment rack or piece of furniture? That may be causing reflections that muddy the sound.

Yes, there is an equipment rack partly in between the speakers. As they are standing almost a foot forward from the back wall compared to the rack, I thought it would have some impact but not too much - perhaps I am wrong and that is muddying the center image.

 

[Dr. Pseudo]

Those are great speakers; however, I've never listened to a pair that close to the room boundaries. Have you tried changing your listening position distance? Also, does it happen on well recorded material or only on studio generated soundstages? You could try seeing if you get proper imaging near field and then expand out to see where you lose the image.

Yes, I have been continuously experimenting with the listening distance as well as height for a precise sweet spot. Also, I have toed in the speakers at different degrees and tilted forward for creating a more on-axis midrange response. I somehow prefer to listen at the back, a little more than an equilateral triangle. 1.1 - 1.25 x speaker distance is also what Wilson suggests so I guess the current listening distance is right. As I get closer, it feels like the speakers are getting hot and curtain the center fill, firing from both sides... I will experiment with nearfield listening again. Finally, I believe the problem I feel is more appereant with studio generated soundstages. Well recorded recordings sound pretty good actually. Also, I feel like many jazz recordings sound decent but as the orchestration and electric guitars in rock music - the loud parts come in, the vocals are left too soft. It just feels like I need to pay extra attention to hear/understand the vocals in loud passages.

 

[Dr. Pseudo]

You can try to move speakers a foot or two closer to listening position to see if it will help or not. Then you may move them close to each other a bit too. In tight space every small change matters. Though it is very possible that Wilson's simply need more space. You may try to add more acoustic panels on a wall behind speakers or side walls at reflection points.

But in limited space you have to be very careful choosing speakers. I know for sure that B&W 802D would work in mid field (I sit 8 feet from them in my room), but I never tried to be that close to a Wilson's pair.

I agree, I have been moving the speakers back and forward & left and right since I got them. Sometimes it just feels absurd but I also believe even a couple inches could make a difference... The problem is it is a little harder to move 165 lbs speakers on spikes, compared to my previous speakers which were half the weight. Because I did not have (obvious) problems with my previous setup in the limited space I have, I guess I overlooked the possibility and also I was too carried away with the idea of bringing the Sophias home after a long platonic period

 

[Dr. Pseudo]

You said you have acoustic treatments at the sides of the speakers. Ideally, acoustic treatment panels should be at the first reflection points.

Yes, I have tried to minimize the negative impact of my current speaker placement in the corner of the room - actually I don't have much problems with the bass department which I thought was a possibility with the 10 inch Sophia woofer. I could have put acoustic treatments on the first reflection points but I have a window on one side wall, which makes everything even more complicated =(

 

[Mamrak1]

If you have ever seen Wilson speakers being positioned... 1. It is a two person operation moving them and another person listening. 2. Positioning is usually done in incriments of an inch or so at a time until the sound locks in.

 

[for_p1]

The problem is it is a little harder to move 165 lbs speakers on spikes, compared to my previous speakers which were half the weight.

That is why I kept casters under my 802D. Spikes advantage is somewhat overrated. You can also try to tilt speakers to the front a bit - just put piece of wood under rear spikes (start with half inch thick).

 

[bhunter]

If you have ever seen Wilson speakers being positioned... 1. It is a two person operation moving them and another person listening. 2. Positioning is usually done in incriments of an inch or so at a time until the sound locks in.

Yes, that is a good point. I've heard dramatic differences with as little as a 1/2 inch when setting up ESLs. "Lockin in" is an apt description IMO.

 

[audiomagnate]

FWIW, my brother bought a pair new (or maybe Sasha's, I always get them mixed up), and when the guys from Wilson delivered them they used a tape measure from the speaker to where his head would be in the sweet spot. They were toed in and about eight feet apart. Here's a pic of his setup.

 

[Dr Tone]

Don't be scared to get agressive with toe in. Wilson's sound best almost right on you for toe in.