Yamaha A-S801 Phono Preamp - Use External?

[billyjk]

I have a new audio system based around the Yamaha A-S801 and Focal Chora 826 speakers. I like to listen to my TT that I refurbished earlier this year with sage help from this forum.

My TT is connected to the integrated phono pre in the Yamaha and it sounds good. I wonder if it could sound better with an external preamp - and how much better, for how much more money. I've read some comments about the 801 integrated pre and I can't draw a clear conclusion about it.

What are the recommendations you folks would make? Would a reasonably-priced preamp like the iFi Zen or Rega Mini make a significant difference in sound quality?

Let me know. I appreciate your advice!

 

[Crab33]

It's quite possible that an external phono pre-amp will be an improvement over the one built into the A-S801. However, the choice of phono pre-amp depends on your cartridge and you don't say what that is - you mention both an Ortofon Super-OM10 and a Pickering XSV-3000 in the opening of your other thread. A cartridge usually has a recommended load capacitance range (e.g. 100-200pF for most Audio Technica cartridges). This load on the cartridge comes from the sum of the phono pre-amp capacitance and phono-cable capacitance. Changing the load capacitance can affect the sound quite noticeably.

 

[justjed2]

I'm a fan of the iFi Zen Phono. In my system, it does nothing wrong, and it sounds great. My regular budget recommendation has been the TCC TC-750, a $50 MM box with no adjustments. Pure plug-and-play. I also like the Parasound Zphono. Had one in my system for about 5 years, with no complaints. I never tried the MC capability, but the MM performance is quite decent. It's not the quietest pre out there, however. I've not tried the Schiit Mani, or the Orbit Pluto, both of which get generally good reviews. But, after having the Zen Phono for a few months, I'm in no hurry to upgrade. It just works. And the fact that John Curl, of Parasound fame, helped in the design is another good point in its favor. MM performance is quite good, and it's VERY quiet.

 

[billyjk]

Thank for the info so far!

I have a Pioneer PL-4 turntable with a Pickering XSV-3000 with a Pfanstiehl 4822-DEE-P stylus at the moment. I also own an Ortofon Super OM-10 which I've yet to install to compare to the Pickering.

My only exposure to capacitance loading is with guitar cables and certain guitar pickups - which can sound *very* different depending on the capacitance of the cable being used, due to the passive nature of guitar pickups. I imagine it's the same with phono cartridges. But unlike guitar cables, I have no idea how to pair a specific cartridge and a specific preamp. I've learned that some preamps have capacitance settings - again, I don't know much about that. I am in learning mode now!

 

[billyjk]

Still looking to find out exactly where the Yamaha A-S801 phono preamp ranks against $50 through $200 external preamps. Is the integrated preamp likely to be on par with such an affordable external preamp? Would I need to spend $500 or more on an external preamp to get a noticeable/appreciable difference from what my Yamaha amp provides now?

Feedback on those points would be very appreciated.

 

[justjed2]

The Yamaha likely has a better than average onboard phono-stage, and a $50 stand-alone unit will probably be outclassed easily. A phono-pre in the $200 range will likely be at least little better, but whether it's enough better to justify the expense is up to the individual. You might have to go up to the $350-$500 bracket to notice any jaw-dropping performance differences.

 

[billyjk]

The Yamaha likely has a better than average onboard phono-stage, and a $50 stand-alone unit will probably be outclassed easily. A phono-pre in the $200 range will likely be at least little better, but whether it's enough better to justify the expense is up to the individual. You might have to go up to the $350-$500 bracket to notice any jaw-dropping performance differences.

Thanks for that insight. I was thinking this might be the case.

I was wondering if anyone here actually tried an external pre with an 801. Maybe something like the Zen, Rega or Cambridge Solo?

 

[Crab33]

Thank for the info so far!

I have a Pioneer PL-4 turntable with a Pickering XSV-3000 with a Pfanstiehl 4822-DEE-P stylus at the moment. I also own an Ortofon Super OM-10 which I've yet to install to compare to the Pickering.

My only exposure to capacitance loading is with guitar cables and certain guitar pickups - which can sound *very* different depending on the capacitance of the cable being used, due to the passive nature of guitar pickups. I imagine it's the same with phono cartridges. But unlike guitar cables, I have no idea how to pair a specific cartridge and a specific preamp. I've learned that some preamps have capacitance settings - again, I don't know much about that. I am in learning mode now!

Your Pickering has a recommended load capacitance of 275pF.

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/I...o-IDX/IDX/70s/Audio-1977-06-OCR-Page-0104.pdf

If you assume your phono-cables contribute around 150pF, that means you need a phono pre-amp of capacitance around 100-150pF to bring the total in the 275pF region. This is relatively low, but there are plenty of units with capacitance of 100pF (the other common value is 220pF, but this may be a bit high for you).

The Super-OM10 is a very good budget cartridge but I prefer it with the load capacitance on the low side in order to keep the brightness down. So, a phono pre-amp with capacitance of 100-150pF would suit this cartridge too.

Yes, you can get phono pre-amps with selectable capacitance (I have one), which allows you to experiment with the settings and choose the one that sounds best to you.

 

[billyjk]

@Crab33 - thanks a million for the education.

I see you have the Yamaha 501. Can you offer some advice from the perspective of an owner regarding the sound quality of the Yamaha phono preamp - assuming the 501 and 801 have the same specs? I fully realize that I can just buy a few preamps and try them all out, but I am attempting to make a more informed move - if any move is actually needed.

Thanks again!

 

[lini]

(...) I've read some comments about the 801 integrated pre and I can't draw a clear conclusion about it. (...)

Well, looking at the schematic of the integrated phono stage (at page 60 of the service manual, available for free download for example on HifiEngine...), what one can see, is a pretty typical, simple "Lipshitz style" implementation, in this case based on an NJM2068MD opamp - so nothing special to begin with, but on the other hand also not necessarily bad. However, while peripheral part quality would seem pretty ok, input capacitance is rather high (foremost due to the 470 pF caps C605/606). And one can also see, that Yamaha chose to feed the NJM2068MD with merely ca. +/- 5,45 V, while that opamp could be fed with up to +/- 18 V, so that the maximum input voltage/overload margin isn't as high as it could be - and indeed it only is 45 mV according to the specs. So from a technical point of view that certainly isn't the worst example of a simple "Lipshitz style" implementation, that one could imagine - but it's definitely suboptimal in terms of input capacitance and overload margin.

Hence I wouldn't be surprised, if one could already find better separate phono stage models in the US$ 50 to 100 range - and I'd definitely expect a model like the ZEN Phono to be quite a good bit better.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini


edit: typo extermination *sigh*

 

[billyjk]

Greetings from US, Manred!

Thanks for your sage advice. I've read so many different things about the Yamaha phono preamp, and indeed, a number of them say exactly what you say - even a bargain preamp will out-perform it.

It's the capacitance mis-match that gets my attention the most. As I stated earlier, I am keenly aware of the C difference in guitar cables, that led me years ago to make my own - with a dramatic difference in sound quality.

Just for fun, I just looked up the Cambridge Solo preamp (one I am considering) input impedance, which appears to be at 100pf - quite different from the reported 470pf in the Yamaha.

 

[lini]

Thanks for your sage advice. (...)

You're welcome.

Well, and personally I'd regard the comparatively high input capacitance the less severe of the two drawbacks, as that should be not all too difficult and pretty cheap to cure with a little modification (by swapping C605 and C606) - provided one can do it oneself, that is (*).

However, I have to admit, that I'm generally a bit disappointed, that, as a model above the A-S301/501/701, the A-S801 doesn't come with a somewhat higher class phono section - or at least more optimal "Lipshitz style" implementation. I would have expected more from Yamaha there.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

*) As having it done by a professional repair shop would most likely cost too much to still be attractice in terms of price-performance.

 

[billyjk]

@lini
Thanks again!

 

[Crab33]

@Crab33 - thanks a million for the education.

I see you have the Yamaha 501. Can you offer some advice from the perspective of an owner regarding the sound quality of the Yamaha phono preamp - assuming the 501 and 801 have the same specs? I fully realize that I can just buy a few preamps and try them all out, but I am attempting to make a more informed move - if any move is actually needed.

Thanks again!

I must confess that I don't think I've ever used the phono-stage in my A-S501. I did use the one in an A-S300 that I had and that wasn't bad. Indeed, 470pF sounds rather high - once you've added the cable capacitance, that my take you beyond 600pF. I don't recall any cartridge manufacturer with a recommended load capacitance that high, except perhaps at the top end of a recommended range. The effect of having a way too high load capacitance is rolled-off highs and a forward mid-range.

If you want to try a cheap but good phono pre-amp, look at the ART DJ Pre II, which sells for about $65 in the US. It actually has selectable capacitance, but only 100pF and 200pF.

 

[lini]

If you want to try a cheap but good phono pre-amp, look at the ART DJ Pre II, which sells for about $65 in the US. It actually has selectable capacitance, but only 100pF and 200pF.

The DJPreII is even worse in terms of overload margin, though. So if Billy would like to try a priceworthy model from Art, I'd rather suggest him to wait, until their Pecision Phono Pre(amp) is available again.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Coigula]

I do not like to demo at home as find it a hassle returned and tracking returns.

68 db gain is a big requirement of MC but Yamaha is very good! I woulod say MC preamp could be improved incrementally. If budget is 500 I would seriously consider the best MoFi unit in that range or return for more records. They often have an open box.

I find the Schitt Mani kinda eh bu others might like it.

 

[Mr Owl]

Thanks for that insight. I was thinking this might be the case.

I was wondering if anyone here actually tried an external pre with an 801. Maybe something like the Zen, Rega or Cambridge Solo?

I have the same Yamaha A-S801 / Chora 826 setup as you. I also have a cambridge phono preamp that was about $200 a few years ago. I had bought it for a pre that didn't have a phono stage (that I've since sold), and I kept the phono pre as I felt it handy to have. I've tried it on the Yamaha, and I can't tell any difference. I find the A-S801's phono stage quite good. In fact, it's a really nice integrated for the money.

 

[Andyman]

Nice thread! I'm going through a reduction in unused gear here and have 3 preamp/amplifiers with MM/MC phono stages in them I've been using with Kegger's modded Anthem PRE1 preamp. I runt the TT into the phono preamp and the Tape Record outs to the Anthem's CD input; it works great Currently a Kenwood C2 is installed, but last night I rolled in a Denon PMA-300V amplifier and it sounds nice with my Denon 301MKII LOMC.
I was thinking last night about hooking up all three at once using a couple selector boxes. I would run the phono leads to the output of one box and run the inputs of that box to each of my 3 phono units, the Kenwood C2, the Denon PMA-300V, and a Yamaha C70. Then I would run the Tape REC outputs from those three to a second selector box inputs and the outputs to the Anthem CD input.
that would allow me to instantly switch between the 3 phono stages and allow me to see which of the 3 i like the best with the 301MKII as well as my MM carts.
I'm kinda rooting for the Denon as it has the least market value, but hope it has synergy with the Denon cart. It is the biggest box of the three though. The Kenwood and Yamaha both sound good and have a lot of fans here, so I may be close to my point of diminishing returns.

All that being said, I could sell all three and buy an standalone for $400+ish, which is why I hopped on this thread.

 

[Coigula]

My philosophy is to try an entry level device, repurpose with my son, and then get a US made US serviced device you would be proud to own 20 years, and make a few payments if needed. Having a pile of 3 or 4 units with mdest improvements is not for me. It is different than other hobbies certainly. Woodworking routers are all in same price point. Weights are all, well just weights. That being said, if you want to stay modest in proce, stay with MM cartridges and build around that.

I got a legacy SURE tube phono amp to play with for 200 and likey 150 over priced lol

 

[dcdiaz]

I had the A-S801 and found the Phono Amp to be lacking in sound quality and low levels. MM cartridges. I put in a schiit mani+ and it outperforms the stock Yamaha. All I can say is "much improvement". Then the 801 died 14 months into ownership. Still using the mani+ though, and it sounds very very good with the new system I put together waiting for the repair. Just my experience though, others mileage may vary.