Yamaha R-N602 with Canton Karat 60 Speakers

[anis493]

Hello all,

Hope every one is safe and doing well here. I need an advise on upgrading my current Yamaha Integrated Amplifier RX-V1800 which is hooked up with Canton Karat 60 speakers. I am using it for Stereo Music and Movies from TV only.

I want to replace RX-V1800 with Yamaha R-N602 because of the BlueTooth WiFi and MusicCast options but I don't want to negotiate on sound quality. The local Yamaha dealer don't have canton speakers for demo and hence I am not able to imagine how the R-N602 will jam with Canton Karat 60. I use to listen loud music, prefer heavy punchy bass in movies/music and I am expecting same result with R-N602.

Appreciate if anyone can advise technically based on specs of Canton Karat 60 and Yamaha R-N602 about how would it play together ?

For those who don't have canton karat 60 details, please refer following link:
https://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Canton_Karat_60

Just in case, if R-N602 is not suggested by anyone, please feel free to propose your choice.

TIA
Kind Regards,

 

[swechsler]

You can't predict how a speaker will perform with a given amp by checking specs, but generally, matching speakers to an amp is not a big deal. The only thing I would confirm is that the new amp is comfortable with 4Ω loads.

Will your Yamaha dealer not allow you to bring in your own speakers to audition the receiver? If not, can you purchase from somewhere (like Amazon, at least in the US) that allows free returns?

 

[anis493]

You can't predict how a speaker will perform with a given amp by checking specs, but generally, matching speakers to an amp is not a big deal. The only thing I would confirm is that the new amp is comfortable with 4Ω loads.

Will your Yamaha dealer not allow you to bring in your own speakers to audition the receiver? If not, can you purchase from somewhere (like Amazon, at least in the US) that allows free returns?

Thank you foe the suggestion about Amazon. I need to check if free returns are possible from my region in Middle East.
Yes, Yamaha dealer offered for demo, if i can bring speakers to their showroom, but these canton box each is nearly 20kg, making difficult to carry.
Seems like carrying box to the showroom is the best way.
Thank you for tips.
Regards,

 

[anis493]

You can't predict how a speaker will perform with a given amp by checking specs, but generally, matching speakers to an amp is not a big deal. The only thing I would confirm is that the new amp is comfortable with 4Ω loads.

Will your Yamaha dealer not allow you to bring in your own speakers to audition the receiver? If not, can you purchase from somewhere (like Amazon, at least in the US) that allows free returns?

Im wondering how the power of each channel in amplifier works with power of speaker ?
Like if the amplifier has 45W per channel and speaker is 100W, in this situation amplifier will have to put more power to drive 100w of speakers, Is this right?

 

[swechsler]

Speakers do not produce* power, so their wattage (input power) ratings are generally just a suggestion. Typically a manufacturer will specify minimum and maximum recommended amplifier power. Rarely is recommended minimum power over 50 watts, and the maximum power can generally be ignored unless you're using the speakers in some sort of sound reinforcement (like in a bar, where they're constantly played very loud), especially there is no standard for those numbers. The specs of 100/150W (nominal/music) for the Karats are essentially meaningless. And since they have no minimum power recommendation, almost any decent quality amp would work fine with them (they are 4Ω, though, which some amps aren't happy with, but the R-N602 doesn't seem to have any problem).

The important numbers regarding power is the sensitivity (mistakenly rated efficiency, at least when using Google translate on that page). Every 3dB increase in speaker sensitivity has the same acoustic effect as doubling your amplifier's output power. So if you hooked these speakers (at 93dB sensitivity) to a 100 watt amp, you'd have the same output capability (all else being equal, but we won't get into that now) as a 90dB sensitive speaker connected to a 200 watt amp.

That being said, 3dB isn't a lot of increase in sound. It's noticeable, but you need to increase the level by 10dB (which requires 10 times as much power) to double the apparent output level (the decibel scale is logarithmic).

And after all that, most of this is relatively unimportant. In most instances you're using only a watt or less of average output power. The reason for this is that music has peaks, which require much more power. When an amp starts trying to produce more power than it's capable of, it results in clipping, which manifests as audible distortion and can damage your speakers. So even though you only really need 1 watt of average output power, to handle the frequent peaks of your music, you need a lot more. If you had a one watt amp and tried to use that full one watt, you'd hear almost 100% distortion. Unless your music consisted of only constant volume sine waves.

* What speakers do is convert electric power to acoustic power, but they are very inefficient at doing so. For example, a full symphony orchestra produces about a watt or two of acoustic power, but the electrical power required to drive speakers to produce that same level is usually (again, depending on speaker efficiency) a couple of orders of magnitude higher than that. The majority of electric power that goes into your speakers is converted into heat, mostly in the voice coils of the speakers.

 

[anis493]

Speakers do not produce* power, so their wattage (input power) ratings are generally just a suggestion. Typically a manufacturer will specify minimum and maximum recommended amplifier power. Rarely is recommended minimum power over 50 watts, and the maximum power can generally be ignored unless you're using the speakers in some sort of sound reinforcement (like in a bar, where they're constantly played very loud), especially there is no standard for those numbers. The specs of 100/150W (nominal/music) for the Karats are essentially meaningless. And since they have no minimum power recommendation, almost any decent quality amp would work fine with them (they are 4Ω, though, which some amps aren't happy with, but the R-N602 doesn't seem to have any problem).

The important numbers regarding power is the sensitivity (mistakenly rated efficiency, at least when using Google translate on that page). Every 3dB increase in speaker sensitivity has the same acoustic effect as doubling your amplifier's output power. So if you hooked these speakers (at 93dB sensitivity) to a 100 watt amp, you'd have the same output capability (all else being equal, but we won't get into that now) as a 90dB sensitive speaker connected to a 200 watt amp.

That being said, 3dB isn't a lot of increase in sound. It's noticeable, but you need to increase the level by 10dB (which requires 10 times as much power) to double the apparent output level (the decibel scale is logarithmic).

And after all that, most of this is relatively unimportant. In most instances you're using only a watt or less of average output power. The reason for this is that music has peaks, which require much more power. When an amp starts trying to produce more power than it's capable of, it results in clipping, which manifests as audible distortion and can damage your speakers. So even though you only really need 1 watt of average output power, to handle the frequent peaks of your music, you need a lot more. If you had a one watt amp and tried to use that full one watt, you'd hear almost 100% distortion. Unless your music consisted of only constant volume sine waves.

* What speakers do is convert electric power to acoustic power, but they are very inefficient at doing so. For example, a full symphony orchestra produces about a watt or two of acoustic power, but the electrical power required to drive speakers to produce that same level is usually (again, depending on speaker efficiency) a couple of orders of magnitude higher than that. The majority of electric power that goes into your speakers is converted into heat, mostly in the voice coils of the speakers.

Excellent and thank you so much for explanation. What you mentioned above about 4Ohm requirement is absolutely correct.
One of the member on this form discussed the same sometime back as per following link.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/replacing-av-receiver-with-stereo-amplifiers.764173/

"" Your speakers appear to be of the acoustic suspension design made in Germany. This means that the speakers are relatively inefficient which means you want an amp with a minimum of 100 watts rms per channel. Further, that rating must be at 4 ohms! This is very important.

An amplifier not rated to handle 4 ohm loads would be a huge mistake for your speakers. Even with that, these 4 ohm inefficient speakers represent a difficult load for any amp.

I happen to own two such sets. My solution in both cases was to "split the load" and bi-amp. That is, I devote one amp to the power hunger woofers and another amp (can be smaller) to the high frequency drivers. In your case, this would require some "surgery" on your speakers, because they did not come from the factory with split networks.

It's work splitting the networks and most good modern speakers come with the networks already split. Nevertheless, I found it well worth the effort.

Hope this helps...
Jerry """

I am thinking does it worth to spend money on N602 for Canton Karat 60 ? or suggested to upgrade the Karat 60 too.
Any suggestion from your side ?

Regards,

 

[anis493]

I mean does Karat 60 are power hungry based on their design and specs ? or N602 will be good enough to take out juice from Karat 60 ?

 

[swechsler]

If it was my money, I'd keep the current receiver (assuming you're happy with it) and try to add the other features with an external component. The Bluetooth part is pretty easy. What are you trying to accomplish with WiFi and Musicast?

 

[anis493]

If it was my money, I'd keep the current receiver (assuming you're happy with it) and try to add the other features with an external component. The Bluetooth part is pretty easy. What are you trying to accomplish with WiFi and Musicast?

Bluetooth part is easy but it impacts the quality. With built-in WiFi we can stream good sound quality music.

 

[swechsler]

Actually the latest version of Bluetooth is quite good, but I can understand wanting to stream. How about an external audio streaming device like this?

 

[anis493]

Actually the latest version of Bluetooth is quite good, but I can understand wanting to stream. How about an external audio streaming device like this?

Let me check out. I looked or Yamah YBA-11 but it does not fit in V1800 because of lake of DC Out interface.