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could racks effect sound that much?

rifftrax said:
I talked to one electrical engineer who worked for GE (pretty smart guy) who mentioned that all circuits are inherently microphonic to a certain degree. The following wiki article would seem to corroborate that idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonics
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I notice it doesn't mention semiconductors as a possible source of microphonics, but does mention capacitors. In my earlier post I mentioned tapping on capacitors to see what happens. I got that from a book I'm reading on amp design. Now it seems like a doubly interesting experiment.

The question then is to figure out how much tapping introduces how much noise... and then how much sound (SPL) introduces noise.

Michael
 
chadnliz said:
This is SOP for far too many here and happens far too often but I think you just need to ignore then and talk around the immature postings,
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Good advice that I will follow in the future. I sure did not mean to create an issue over it.
Regards,
Jim
 
JonL said:
There may be some reverse snobbery here, but no more so than the bit of looking down one's nose that occurs when someone posts honest questions about less than pedestrian components. Or when someone posts an opinion about turntables without having ever heard a particular benchmark model. I think some of the high-enders who are into expensive tweaks are a little thin skinned. The cry of "reverse snobbery!" is generally heard when people question rather far-fetched performance claims made for very expensive tweaks especially when the claims are supported by explanations that border on nonsensical. If someone wants to be thin-skinned and discuss questionable tweaks then TOL is their haven. The rules and appropriate aggressive moderation keep things in check so sensibilities will not be offended. Those of us who want to question dubious claims without fear of stepping on sensitive toes need a place to respectfully do that as well. I don't think the bounds of respect should dictate that someone can't call a perpetrator of dubious claims a charlatan or even a snake oil salesman if that is their honest humble opinion.

If someone wants to spend mega bucks on a tweak, fine. That's their business. In their threads posted within TOL they can be treated with kid gloves. But where do we get a chance to be skeptical and critical of people who sell $17,000 racks that have minds of their own, sales of which are based upon claims that black is a color and sounds constrained compared to silver which sounds distorted and grainy, and after the racks do a belly dance for 300 hours suddenly all that was in the imagination of the musician shall be revealed unto you? Sometime the emperor has no clothes and there's got to be place here where that can be said.

Am I off base?
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Not at all, your point is well taken!
Regards,
Jim
 
similost said:
I'm not buying it.....

The racks that is... I know I can get a lot better sound improvements than a rack will make for that kinda money...

Hell, for that kinda money, I can hire a girl to sit naked on my system and I won't give a **** what it sounds like..
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LOL HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Just spit coffee all over the keyboard! thanks! lol
 
marc mc said:
It's not the price Jim. If critical Mass sold 20K amp stands that had a caption that said "Built Like a Tank". I wouldn't care! But that is not the claim is it?. IMO this hobby has never been served well by fantastic claims that fly in the face of what we know and hundreds of people have tried.

I doubt anyone hear thinks that racks don't matter. But the claims of break in and componant like changes with amps and preamps is getting reactions from members that know better. Racks are tweaks and there is a reason we call it tweaking.

We are not putting down a member or an audio product. We are talking about the claims and statements of the products designer.

marc mc
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Thanks for the clarification. I still feel everyone has a right to their own opinion without ridicule about it. I will not pass judgment on others motives henceforth, and all parties involved have my apologies.
Regards,
Jim
 
cwall99 said:
I agree. But then does anyone rip on someone who buys a Ferrari? Well, sure, okay, some people will, but, I mean, why do you need that much car? The speed limit here in the states is, in most states, up around 70 or 75 mph. So why buy a car that'll do 150 or 200?

But, then again, the salesman isn't feeding you some line of nonsense about how these windshield wipers will make your windshield seem more transparent, adding to the "wind-in-your-hair" excitement or some such stuff like that.
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If you can afford a Ferrari, you can afford to take it to the track and race it.

Ferrari have other attributes that people look for other than top speed, like acceleration - no law against that.

Paintings do nothing but look good (sometimes) but can cost millions and may not take any more effort to make than cheaper selling paintings. Cars and these so called expensive racks are also good looking so people spend the extra cash on it.
 
Peter_Klim said:
Ferrari have other attributes that people look for other than top speed, like acceleration - no law against that.
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Well.. yeah.. depending it can be.. even if you are racing just up to the speed limit, they can cite you for acceleration contest, and if you're getting up to the speed limit in crazy times, they can cite you for reckless driving.. Don't ask me how I know this..
 
JonL said:
I think some of the high-enders who are into expensive tweaks are a little thin skinned.

If someone wants to spend mega bucks on a tweak, fine. That's their business. In their threads posted within TOL they can be treated with kid gloves. But where do we get a chance to be skeptical and critical of people who sell $17,000 racks that have minds of their own, sales of which are based upon claims that black is a color and sounds constrained compared to silver which sounds distorted and grainy, and after the racks do a belly dance for 300 hours suddenly all that was in the imagination of the musician shall be revealed unto you? Sometime the emperor has no clothes and there's got to be place here where that can be said.

Am I off base?
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No, I think you are right on target.
 
My homeade rack rocks!!

People find it hard to believe that an old man in a wheelchair could produce such a fine rack by himself using simple hand tools and materials found around the house-but it's true!!

Also note the hi-tech power cord to the CDP-reducing the length by 91% reduces all the deleterious effects of the poor/original cord by that huge amount.
And-its very subjective-but I believe the pre-war copper of the plug used in this up-grade lends newfound transparency to the soundstage, even when listening to vinyl!!

All kidding aside though-the fact that both turntables and the rack rest upon a two and a quarter inch thick tulip poplar "desk" that is mounted to the fieldstone foundation with 1"x1.5' steel rods drilled and epoxied into it contribute to the success, at least for turntables.

If I was really motivated, I'd get out my cassette deck, put on pre-out, and see if I could record any discernable hammerblows to the "rack" or tabletop when inputting a silent CD (where to find one?).
Perhaps a more interesting experiment would be to do a needle drop on a stationary LP, running the TT thru a spare pre to the cassette deck, and blast the main system to see how much of the sound is picked up microphonically thru the cartridge/TT combo (I'm sure it would be).
One could then experiment with isolation strategies in a meaningful way.
Me, I'm too satisfied with how good my system already sounds.
 

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Some controversial threads (of expensive snake oil) seem to me like they are staged by the mfgr posing as a true believer customer, to generate interest and maybe some sales to innocent and ignorant readers who fall into the trap. To them any exposure is better than no exposure at all (and forum registration is free).
 
I feel so far behind.....

....Two years in AK and yet I have not found a rack that I am happy with.......I hope once I find it, it does what is supposed to do: which for me is to display my audio equipment and to look good in my living room........Anything else would be a bonus.............

There are two racks that I like: Finite Elemente and Burmester, but they are way out of my price range..............I just like them from the aesthetics point of view. I do not envy or would I put down anyone who can afford one of those; more power to them. I guess everything is relative; If you can afford the expensive equipment you can most probably afford the rack.
 
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marc mc said:
It's not an extreme position. rifftrax, this topic is at least 30 years old. If putting all your gear in another room makes virtually no difference (I have tried it) I fail to see the radical claims made by this manufacture.
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I mean extreme in the sense of taking a side. On one extreme you have the guys who says virabtion/displacement shock of semi-conductors/electronic components has no audible side effects. On the other side, there's the camp that says the distortion byproducts of mechanical vibration on many circuit structures are immense and controllable by dampening. Those are the two extremes, all or nothing.

I don't see why your having moved gear into another room debunks anything about stands or vibration damping tools. That would be room acoustics (which, I'm pretty sure will all know, tuning a room can and will make a huge difference - ask any mix engineer).
 
rifftrax said:
I don't see why your having moved gear into another room debunks anything about stands or vibration damping tools. That would be room acoustics (which, I'm pretty sure will all know, tuning a room can and will make a huge difference - ask any mix engineer).
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Because the majority of people believe that the sound energy in a room with speakers playing is the largest source of problems (airbourne vibration). The gear in the other room eliminates that.

As for the energy contained in things that componants are placed on being released into the componant that is a very interesting subject. In fact that is what the literature that I use to have for the Sound Organisation table talked about and why that is the best TT stand I know of. This is achieved by a light, rigid steel stand with spikes on the legs and a decoupled board for a platform.

BTW this TT stand works the same in or out of the room music is playing in. I tried that about 20 years ago as did most of my friends. And you can kick the stand. Yes I said kick! the stand while its playing a record. I don't have a "200,000 watt shaker table" so I just tried kicking it.

marc mc
 
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bastek said:
Some controversial threads (of expensive snake oil) seem to me like they are staged by the mfgr posing as a true believer customer, to generate interest and maybe some sales to innocent and ignorant readers who fall into the trap. To them any exposure is better than no exposure at all (and forum registration is free).
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Agreed but it was still fun.

BTW I thought that from the first post and I'm glad you said it first.

marc mc
 
similost said:
Well.. yeah.. depending it can be.. even if you are racing just up to the speed limit, they can cite you for acceleration contest, and if you're getting up to the speed limit in crazy times, they can cite you for reckless driving.. Don't ask me how I know this..
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The good old "unreasonable acceleration" clause...yup. :D
 
My opinion is this, if you're worried enough about the differences a rack is gonna have in your sound would it not be best to set all your gear on separate isolated butcher blocks, slabs of rock or slate? wouldn't you then only have one thing to worry about instead of the multiple different pieces of a rack, moving and vibrating with the music thus altering the final isolation of your gear after bass waves hit it? I don't believe racks are going to make a huge difference in sound. But if you take soundesign rack and set a Krell FPB 600 on it sure there will prolly be a difference compared to a high dollar solitary amp stand or rack like a Finite Elemente or Steve Blinn Design but A if you have that kind of money you wouldn't set anything even close to krell on a soundesign rack and B if you chose krell there may be a chance your paying for names in which case you prolly believe in the rack sound enhancement!

I'm just saying it kind of goes by modesty in a sense, if your content with vintage audio and like the way it sound your probably not gonna care to drop $6k on a Finite Elemente rack, but if your stereo is never good enough you will buy into every enhancement I.E. rocks, cables, wall treatments, stereo racks ETC though some may indeed make a difference maybe the difference is not big enough to justify the price tag!

Just my .02
Shawn.
 
Heres my personal rack, no promised sound enhancements just sturdy with decent looks in my opinion and fairly cheep for a brand new quality rack at $250.

P1010168.jpg
 
what to put a KRELL on:

But if you take soundesign rack and set a Krell FPB 600 on it sure there will prolly be a difference compared to a high dollar solitary amp stand or rack like a Finite Elemente or Steve Blinn Design but A if you have that kind of money you wouldn't set anything even close to krell on a soundesign rack and B if you chose krell there may be a chance your paying for names in which case you prolly believe in the rack sound enhancement!


People can't believe it! That an old man in a wheelchair could construct such a fine rack using materials found around the house-but it is possible!!!
 

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