12 AWG Vs Audiophile Cables

[hurling]

Maybe I've missed it (always a possibility) but I think that if a cable manufacturer were serious about their product that they would show empirical evidence about the difference that their cable makes. The same goes for the audio magazines. Show me the response graph differences between the same speaker with different cables. I have heard a lot of people say that they can hear the difference in impedance of cables. Again, show me repeatable tests that back up the assertion. The same goes for pure copper interconnects versus silver plated or any other material.

My point is that it may be likely that some of these elements or all of them are actually demonstrable. If so, then people should take the time to publish their results. It seems like this is such an easy topic for sterophile or any other audio magazine.

 

[ken kantor]

What do you mean by that? Seems like Ken's answer is pretty flat earth, assuming you mean it in perjorative term regarding not making much difference.

I try very hard to be meticulously accurate in what I post here. Truth, in this kind of thing, is not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter what people think will happen, or what people expect will happen... what invariably DOES happen is that when people can't see the cables, they can't tell them apart.

"Flat Earth" refers to rejecting proven scientific facts, in favor of a strongly held belief system based on personal observation. "Don't tell me the Earth is round! Everyone can see it is flat with their own eyes!"

Honestly, who is doing that here?

-k

 

[ken kantor]

Although we've been thoroughly trolled, please cite credible sources.

Perhaps, eventually. Is that my responsibility here? What credible sources do you have?

If you are suggesting that I am trolling, that is unfair. I was answering the OP question, and accurately so. If you are suggesting the OP was a troll, that is possible. But, it is also possible that he has become uncertain of what he is hearing.

-k

 

[Urizen]

Perhaps, eventually. Is that my responsibility here? What credible sources do you have?

If you are suggesting that I am trolling, that is offensive. I was answering the OP question, and accurately so. If you are suggesting the OP was a troll, that is possible. But, it is also possible that he has become uncertain of what he is hearing.

-k

I was referring to the OP, but given your evasive response, I'll gladly include you.

 

[ken kantor]

I was referring to the OP, but given your evasive response, I'll gladly include you.

Evasive, because I don't feel like searching references, some of which I have formerly posted, at 8am on Saturday. Indeed!

As a class, my sources include:

- A number of studies in peer-reviewed publications.
- A larger number of published studies which conformed to proper experimental protocol.
- My own work in this area, as a paid professional, on Monster Cable's (and others') dime.
- The results of many experiments conducted at places I worked, notably AR and NAD.
- A long laundry list of esteemed audio professionals, from famous recording engineers to renowned theoreticians, from equipment designers to college professors.

Speaking of evasive: Again, what are your reliable sources?

-k

 

[Urizen]

Sources for what? Listening for oneself? C'mon, Ken.

 

[PR Audio]

No, cables make almost no difference, provided they are of low resistance. 12ga makes excellent speaker wire.

-k

Though I know your background and expertise, I have to agree and disagree. In my case, your statement is true to my Marantz SR-5001 HT Receiver and my Dayton DTA-1 amp. But, in my tube system (CJ MV-75 amp) it is a different story. I used solid silver wire 20 AWG with three strands twisted for each +/- terminal (6 strands total). Compared them to my DIY twisted 12 AWG cables. Sound from the DIY silver cables was somewhat brighter than the DIY 12 AWG, which was an improvement for my tube system, which has a lot of bass and is very warm; I use KT90 tubes. When doing the same thing with my other receivers/amps, the difference was hardly noticeable, if any.

If someone wants a good pair of DIY cables that are easy to make and look good, you can make the DIY Canare's that are a few posts back, or take 12 AWG cable (I used Vampire Wire), cut to your desired length, then twist the cables and use hot glue or other glue every 6 inches or so to hold the twist, cut 4" of heat shrink of the appropriate size to cover the ends of each cable "leg"; I used red for + and white for -, apply heat to shrink the tube, if you want you can put cable pants at this time, then cover the complete cable with heat shrink tube and cut about 1/2" after the "legs" start or the pants begin, apply heat to shrink, for banana terminals I didn't want to solder (it is up to you), so I used Monster QuickLock Banana Plugs on one end, the other end I used spades for vintage binding posts.

In the DIY forum here you can find a sticky thread of people showing their DIY cables and you will find many ideas there, mine are somewhere there.

I'm a believer of system synergy of all it's components, including speaker cables and interconnects. Having said that, I will not get into a debate regarding the subject. This is highly subjective, and your point of view and findings might not only be determined by measurements or how sensitive to sound you are, but there might also be a psychological factor. The probability is that 99.9% of the people weighing in on the subject are not Psychiatrists, and regarding experimentation and measurements only a few have done it. Personally, I have done listening comparisons with my equipment, but not taken measurements.

 

[carcrazy]

I have found that the more revealing my system is the more noticeable the difference in cables is. When I switched from cheap generic 14 gauge speaker wire to 12 gauge multistranded Axiom Audio speaker wire it made the highs slightly clearer. Perhaps the thicker jacket provided better shielding and the larger gauge wire with purer copper had something to do with it. I haven't upgraded my IC's yet, I think I will try to do some DIY style cables first.

 

[ken kantor]

Sources for what? Listening for oneself? C'mon, Ken.

Listening for one's self is hardly a "credible source!!!!" Science would be in quite a state if that is how issues were adjudicated.

Are you really that discounting of observer bias???? If so, there can't be much to discuss or learn. We are all correct, yipeeee!

Besides, it has already been well established that people are unable to hear small cable differences when, "listening for themselves." They just think they can, but they are usually wrong.

-k

 

[ken kantor]

I bought a pair of Dayton B652 bookshelf speakers last year from Parts Express and they also sent a pair of 10' wires that were really thin, I think about 22 awg. They told me at less than 10' I won't hear any difference but I didn't feel right about using such tiny wires.

Don't change the subject!

We are discussing 10ga vs. Tara. These results may, or may not, apply to 22ga.

-k

 

[whoaru99]

I try very hard to be meticulously accurate in what I post here. Truth, in this kind of thing, is not a popularity contest. It doesn't matter what people think will happen, or what people expect will happen... what invariably DOES happen is that when people can't see the cables, they can't tell them apart.

"Flat Earth" refers to rejecting proven scientific facts, in favor of a strongly held belief system based on personal observation. "Don't tell me the Earth is round! Everyone can see it is flat with their own eyes!"

Honestly, who is doing that here?

-k

Thanks Ken. Clearly I misapplied "flat earth" in reference to your statement. That's certainly not what I meant to do (infer you disregarded science in the reply); the intent was just opposite. My apology for misapplying the term.

 

[ken kantor]

Maybe I've missed it (always a possibility) but I think that if a cable manufacturer were serious about their product that they would show empirical evidence about the difference that their cable makes. The same goes for the audio magazines. Show me the response graph differences between the same speaker with different cables. I have heard a lot of people say that they can hear the difference in impedance of cables. Again, show me repeatable tests that back up the assertion. The same goes for pure copper interconnects versus silver plated or any other material.

My point is that it may be likely that some of these elements or all of them are actually demonstrable. If so, then people should take the time to publish their results. It seems like this is such an easy topic for sterophile or any other audio magazine.

I have been hired to try and produce such material. Alas, though I needed the work, the tests invariably failed when resistance was reasonable.

-k

 

[Urizen]

I will not, nor have the gall to, dispute what others state they can hear. If one can't hear a difference, whether it be between cables, amps, etc., who am I to argue? Similarly, who does the disservice to others by stating their unswerving objectivity to those who state they can perceive differences?

 

[knasty]

Evasive, because I don't feel like searching references, some of which I have formerly posted, at 8am on Saturday. Indeed!

As a class, my sources include:

- A number of studies in peer-reviewed publications.
- A larger number of published studies which conformed to proper experimental protocol.
- My own work in this area, as a paid professional, on Monster Cable's (and others') dime.
- The results of many experiments conducted at places I worked, notably AR and NAD.
- A long laundry list of esteemed audio professionals, from famous recording engineers to renowned theoreticians, from equipment designers to college professors.

Speaking of evasive: Again, what are your reliable sources?

-k

:thmbsp: :thmbsp: :thmbsp: :thmbsp:

 

[chicks]

C'mon Ken, my own eyes tell me that the earth is flat, and I trust my eyes. How dare you tell me otherwise!

 

[ken kantor]

I will not, nor have the gall to, dispute what others state they can hear. If one can't hear a difference, whether it be between cables, amps, etc., who am I to argue? Similarly, who does the disservice to others by stating their unswerving objectivity to those who state they can perceive differences?

That's a luxury I can't afford. People who design equipment make countless decisions that require an understanding of relative audibility to answer correctly. Everyone's personal opinion is useless. What is useful is the true answer. I would opine that exactly >none< of the progress that has been made in audio has come from subjective feedback. 100% of what we know has come from experiment, theory and measurement, including carefully controlled listening tests. And, at any rate, some of us consider the truth to be a service, not a disservice.

BTW- Does your doctor have "gall" to tell you that you are ill when you are feeling fine? One lets little children believe in Santa Claus. As they grow up, they deserve to learn the truth... out of respect for them as young adults. Allowing them to persist in their beliefs would be disrespectful.

-k

 

[Urizen]

Opine us with some links.

 

[ken kantor]

Opine us with some links.

Much of this stuff was put to bed long before the web arose. But, I will certainly see what I can find.

-k

 

[kyle]

That's a luxury I can't afford. People who design equipment make countless decisions that require an understanding of relative audibility to answer correctly. Everyone's personal opinion is useless. What is useful is the true answer. I would opine that exactly >none< of the progress that has been made in audio has come from subjective feedback. 100% of what we know has come from experiment, theory and measurement, including carefully controlled listening tests. And, at any rate, some of us consider the truth to be a service, not a disservice.



-k

Using this logic, can we conclude that speakers that were not designed using your methodology, single ended amps, vinyl records and other highly subjective areas of audio are also invalid?

 

[Jeff K]

Ken, thanks for your contributions and thick skin. It would be a shame if this forum were ever to lose its most credentialed member.