220V vs 120V - Any benefit?

[jstang]

If you firm up the AC side of the amp, it will firm up the Output side....meaning improve bass response and other high power demanding transients. At least with very a demanding speaker load.....

At least that is the theory..... I started the temporary wiring last night, will try to finish this evening. So that Saturday morning I have to switch the amp over and the breaker box...


Its the concept behind behind the Monster Power AVS 2000 about 1000$ and the ExactPower about 2000$. Prevent AC power sag..... Except I am paying 78$ for a similar YET TO BE PROVEN improvement, but it is proven 220 will not sag under load as much as 120.... Question is...will I hear the difference... Monster and Exactpower say yes with their products.... 78$ I am willing to spend in the name of Audio Science

http://www.monstercable.com/power/voltage_stabilizers/signature_series.asp

http://www.exactpower.com/products/ep15a/index.html

On the Mac Oscillation... The owner is a long term Audio person so it was his assessment that it went in to oscillation. Ohm F and As have been known to eat amps......its the huge heavy cone. That is the same reason I think the AC side is important.... every little bit helps control the cone under heavy bass.


jk

 

[jstang]

The amp is switched via the terminal strip inside the chassis....changing the turns ration of the transformer which configures the amp to run on 220. I am not trying double the Rail voltage... But I am trying to prevent Rail sag.....

I KNOW EVERY ONE KNOWS THIS BUT JUST IN CASE ---- NEVER PLUG A 120VAC UNIT INTO 220VAC WITHOUT CHECKING THE MANUAL ON HOW TO DO IT CORRECTLY....

Hehehehe Smoke, fire, repair bills.....

Do any of you know how the amp is switched from 110 to 220?

Most every dual voltage amp I've seen, there are two primary windings in the transformer. For 110/120 vac, those windings are in parallel. When the amp is plugged into 220 vac, and the voltage selection switch is switched to the 220 vac position, those windings are now in series.

The end result is... it won't make a difference. The amp will still have the same voltage (and available amperage) on the rails.

 

[whoaru99]

Not disputing that the amp possibly failed due to oscillation. My only point was that I don't believe the failure was related to the damping factor.

 

[whoaru99]

As a side note, I have two amps that definitely benefit (at least power wise) from 240V operation.

In stereo mode, the power increases from 1,400wpc @ 2 ohms to 1,800wpc when the input voltage ≥ 200V. In bridged mode, the power increases from 2,800W @ 4 ohms to 3,600W when input voltage is ≥ 200V.

These amps need no reconfiguration to operate between 100-240V as they have "universal" power supplies with PFC.

 

[jstang]

Dude.... You have been holding out.... :yes:


What amp and model is that....? You have spec sheet? ( Only a hand full would be in that class....) Guess that is in your sig.....


jk

As a side note, I have two amps that definitely benefit (at least power wise) from 240V operation.

In stereo mode, the power increases from 1,400wpc @ 2 ohms to 1,800wpc when the input voltage ≥ 200V. In bridged mode, the power increases from 2,800W @ 4 ohms to 3,600W when input voltage is ≥ 200V.

These amps need no reconfiguration to operate between 100-240V as they have "universal" power supplies with PFC.

 

[whoaru99]

Holding out...yes and no.

Because of the nature of the power supply in these amps, it's not really apples to apples with your situation.

The amps are Crown CE4000 and spec sheets are available on-line in the Crown audio discontinued products section. I use them with subwoofers.

 

[jstang]

Understood on Switching supply differences....

Crown typical power consumption
AC Line Current:
100 Volts: 8.5A
120 Volts: 7.1A
230-240 Volts: 3.7A

Well with the fusing suggested by Marantz....

10Amp for 220 is 2.2KVA ( MAX KVA the model 500 transformer...)
15amp for 120 is 1.833KVA

The two seem to track to concept of greater power handling at 220...at least for transient loads.

Both Crown and Marantz may be just abiding by the same Physics of 120 and 220 power delivery..... That lower voltage reduces the power delivery within reasonable amperage levels on typical wiring.

Does the Crown recommend a specific circuit for 120 and 220? I did not see that in the spec sheet. I would think that 1,400wpc @ 2 ohms and 120VAC they are expecting a 20amp circuit? And once you move up to 220, the commonly used 20amp/15amp 120V AC supply is no longer the bottle neck for power delivery. 1,800wpc @ 2 ohms is the real limit of the amp....

BINGO FOR THE CROWN POWER PLANNING....

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/131511.pdf

Think that doc basically says the Amp is limited by the power is draw from the AC source....

I wish I could get the specs for the Marantz transformer....I am going to try to find it...but have my doubts after 35years....

Makes me even more interested in the testing....

jk

 

[jstang]

From the Crown Manual


Minimum Guaranteed Power (watts)
Dual Mode, both channels driven
1 kHz with 0.5% THD
2 ohm (per ch.), ≥ 200-V line voltage 1,800
2 ohm (per ch.), < 200-V line voltage 1,400
4 ohm (per ch.) 1,200
8 ohm (per ch.) 600

Suggests at extreme levels an Crown amp is helped by 220VAC....

Difference power supply in the Marantz.... plain old transformer and caps... Which could mean this is more or even less important for it.... Thinking Rail sag.....

jk

 

[wineslob]

Stang, I probably missed this, but what is the listed wattage draw on the back of the amp?

 

[jstang]

Stang, I probably missed this, but what is the listed wattage draw on the back of the amp?

hehehehe good question....ready for the answer? 300watts....listed on the back of the amp....but the transformer is ~2200 watt rated....

The idle power of the amp is about 120 watts...so that leaves 180 or less for continuous output...seems that has nothing to do with the amps real power capabilities. Yet look at the back of a 2270 is says 500 Watts.....for 70WPC...

Now I know that is a average "rating".... I know that I have dimmed the meter lamps and the lights that are on the same circuit....with actual music ..... so back panel wattage is an average over what time, what music and with what speaker load....

jk

 

[whoaru99]

The ratings on the back of consumer gear are all over the place. The only way to know for sure how it was determined would be to find the UL approval documentation, or for the manufacturer to tell how it was done. Anything else is purely a crapshoot.

Pro audio amps, otoh, are fairly standardized. The back panel rating is generally taken at 1/8 power, 4 ohm load in stereo/dual channel mode, using pink noise signals.

At 100% duty cycle (virtually unheard of in real use), the CE4000 would draw approximately 42A @ 120V when bridged into 4 ohms.

 

[whoaru99]

Suggests at extreme levels an Crown amp is helped by 220VAC....

Difference power supply in the Marantz.... plain old transformer and caps... Which could mean this is more or even less important for it.... Thinking Rail sag.....

jk

At extreme levels, yes, the Crown does clearly benefit. However, those extreme levels (other than momentary peaks), are pretty rare.

A conventional power supply would be more susceptible to the effects of line sag than the universal switching supply. This is because the switching supply will change its operating parameters (within its limits of design) to regulate the rail voltage back to spec when either the line or rail voltages drop. However, there is only so much regulation the power supply can do without having a higher input voltage.

The PFC feature in the amps helps too because the amp presents an easier load to the AC supply by keeping the power factor at unity, rather than suffering the reactive (or what ever the technical name is) effects of large inductive loads (re: big iron transformers).

 

[jstang]

So .... 220 being more stable and more capable of suppling power with less drop....should actually help the performance of a plain old iron core transformer / big cap power supplied amp more than a regulated switcher supplied amp...

Because the plain old is not regulated....

More science to back up some of the measurements... Bottom line - Big amps like lots of clean AC power...

Still comes down to the pure practical side of will I hear a difference? Time to shut up and do.....

thanks,
Johnk

At extreme levels, yes, the Crown does clearly benefit. However, those extreme levels (other than momentary peaks), are pretty rare.

A conventional power supply would be more susceptible to the effects of line sag than the universal switching supply. This is because the switching supply will change its operating parameters (within its limits of design) to regulate the rail voltage back to spec when either the line or rail voltages drop. However, there is only so much regulation the power supply can do without having a higher input voltage.

The PFC feature in the amps helps too because the amp presents an easier load to the AC supply by keeping the power factor at unity, rather than suffering the reactive (or what ever the technical name is) effects of large inductive loads (re: big iron transformers).

 

[SB Marantz]

So I am planning my final install of my system..its been temporary up to now. The Marantz Model 500 amp can run on 220Vs.

So the question is - If running the power amp on 220 can provide any benefit in sound quality? 220V should be able to provide more POWER at lower current loads on the supply side.

But I have never tried this.....I am sure our overseas friends can comment....


Any thoughts?

jk

I own a 500 as you know but i doubt it if the thing would sound better on 220/230 VAC then on the 110 / 120 VAC setting.

Pherhaps a friend of mine can clarify this.

But imo it should not make any difference.

 

[wineslob]

hehehehe good question....ready for the answer? 300watts....listed on the back of the amp....but the transformer is ~2200 watt rated....

The idle power of the amp is about 120 watts...so that leaves 180 or less for continuous output...seems that has nothing to do with the amps real power capabilities. Yet look at the back of a 2270 is says 500 Watts.....for 70WPC...

Now I know that is a average "rating".... I know that I have dimmed the meter lamps and the lights that are on the same circuit....with actual music ..... so back panel wattage is an average over what time, what music and with what speaker load....

jk

The reason I ask is a 120V (I may have used 110) 15 amp circuit is = 1650 watts, 20 amp would be 2200 watts. The wattage rating of the transformer may not relate directly to the wattage draw of the amp. I believe it will depend on what voltage the amp is operating at internally (rails )that will dictate wattage draw at the wall.
If you are dimming the lights try a different circuit, one that is not shared. I purposely (sp?) put in two 20A dedictated circuits with duplex outlets in my AV room (avatar). No dimming problems at all.

 

[MudPuppy176]

The reason I ask is a 120V (I may have used 110) 15 amp circuit is = 1650 watts, 20 amp would be 2200 watts. The wattage rating of the transformer may not relate directly to the wattage draw of the amp. I believe it will depend on what voltage the amp is operating at internally (rails )that will dictate wattage draw at the wall.
If you are dimming the lights try a different circuit, one that is not shared. I purposely (sp?) put in two 20A dedictated circuits with duplex outlets in my AV room (avatar). No dimming problems at all.

As expected, a 20A circuit is more than adequate. People must experiment with a larger wheel to carry a load a smaller wheel would adequately support. While it certainly doesn't hurt, nothing is gained but cost.

 

[jstang]

1. Running ONE 220VAC 20amp circuit cost me less than TWO dedicated 120V 20amp circuits... in parts....labor is less because I only have to run one .... I am the labor....

2. Running a 220VAC 20amp circuit cost me 10$ more than one dedicated 120V 20amp circuits... in parts....labor is the same, me ....

Go figure....

What is gained - the voltage drop on a 220 will be less % wise which means less chance of dimming lights & sagging rails.....and more efficient power transmission....

15$ Less for the 220 in number 1.....

10$ More for the 220 in number 2......

The devil is in the details..... The real test is in the listening.....certainly 10$ here or there is meaningless when you have thousands of $ in vintage audio gear..... Right?

You should have been around me when I built my pre-amps and monoblocks from scratch... Every part was hand selected, hand inspected, hand tested and hand assembled with nauseating attention to detail..... just a labor of love......


jk

As expected, a 20A circuit is more than adequate. People must experiment with a larger wheel to carry a load a smaller wheel would adequately support. While it certainly doesn't hurt, nothing is gained but cost.

 

[MudPuppy176]

I have no doubt you will report vast improvement. Placebo has "cured" many ailments.

 

[jstang]

I have doubts it will be vast as well.... But shaving make a pile..... If you look back at the first page I never expected vast improvements....

However, leaning more of the issue and the cost of commercially available products to correct it.... Power conditioners go for 700 to 2000$.... I figured a dedicated line and more specifically a 220VAC would provide the most cost affective solution...at 78$.

I am looking for possible improvement in Low Feq response which is why I tested using a 30hz signal.

Specifically the best bang for the buck would be the 220VAC as it is costing 10$ more over a 120 line....and provides the least voltage drop.

Here is how I go about these types of items that I am un-sure of....

1. I search sites that I belong to and feel have strong expertise...I seek out expertise. If I find the answer great....

2. No prior information posted....? True, then I post a question, because I respect the folks on the site and feel expertise maybe there to answer the question straight away with prior experience...

3. If the answer is still comes back " No one knows for sure...." I charge ahead with a full blown investigation...and share every detail I can with the folks on the site.... provided it seems worthy... at 78$ cost.... what the hell....

4. If the answer the comes back No it will not work... I ask for details...no concrete details? I usually ignore those responses....

Why do I share?

First off....being in the technology field for many years, I have learned that once in a while you run into questions that can be best answered in a forum or even a Quorum ( argue out the topic........ ) In one week's time I have learned a lot about the affect of the AC power side of the system... That would have taken months in my spare time... Some people on this site that have solid expertise have chimed in and I am appreciative of that....!!!!! I have been educated, wow the Internet at its best!!!!!! and AudioKarma at its best....

Secondly...This site has provided to me a wealth of information and wisdom that I consider to be invaluable... I feel that it is more then fair for me to share the details...

I will post well documented results this afternoon....with voltage readings and what my ears say. Perhaps the best way to have documented this would be with a 20 HZ square wave for before and after.... But my signal generator is broke.... Oh well.....

If I come back this afternoon and say "WOW NIGHT AND DAY...." you know I dropped some LSD for the first time in my life..... By the way as an Engineer with 25 years in the field....I stopped taking placebo many years ago...and look for the Devil in the details.....

This post is somewhat overkill.... But its good clean fun, MAYBE WILL TURN OUT TO BE HELPFUL AND VERY COST AFFECTIVE..... for me Audio is more than something I spend money on...its a hobby.... Besides, how much porn can you look at on the WEB?

Now If I ever work out my Cold Fusion solution.... YOU GUYS WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT ONE...... Any one have a link for freeware signal generator that can produce a good 20hz Square wave? I rather use a real signal generator as don't trust my lap top audio out.....

jk

 

[MudPuppy176]

Specifically the best bang for the buck would be the 220VAC as it is costing 10$ more over a 120 line....and provides the least voltage drop.
jk

This is not so. If both 120V circuits are equally loaded the voltage drop is identical as the wire length is essentially halved. No tap changes, no cord cap (plug) changes, no 240V receptacle, just standard 20A receptacles useful for ANYTHING at any future time. Your amp was shipped with a 120V plug because its more than adequate.