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2M Black needle literally missing off of stylus...Options?

Mister Pig: The cantilever and diamond are gone, there is nothing of consequence to rebuild. The plastic grip is a part worth pennies.

This is correct. The diamond itself and the cantilever (the tube it fits on) are likely 90% of the manufacturing cost on this kind of cartridge. On the Red, they might be 50%. I cannot speak to any production quality issues with the Ortofon line, other than that personally I've had good results with them. All cartridges have delicate styli, easily damaged by accident, and the costlier the design, the more delicate they tend to be.

OP: I used the $50 to buy a 2M Red stylus, put it on the Black cart, and I've been happy since then.

So, don't worry, be happy, as the man said! I'd suggest staying with the Red until it wears, then perhaps upgrade to a Blue or Bronze. The Red is a damn fine cart for the modest price it sells for. Do note that proper turntable setup becomes far more critical for fine-line / hyperelliptical styli (and a Shibata is fussier yet), and ideally should be done by an experienced turntable tech with the proper test gear and records, if one is available in your area.
 
You could always sell the empty black cart to help fund the purchase of something else. I'm not sure what a black cart without stylus is worth but I know they are hard to find for sale.
 
In his first post L5hunter wrote: "Sometime between me reserving it on layaway and me coming back for it, the idiots in the pawn shop didn't secure the tonearm and when I inspected it the tonearm had of course fallen and was pressed against the body of the turntable with some force."
 
needlestein said:
No offense! No worries. I'm really not as invested in this as it might seem from what I'm writing. I do think that Ortofon knows there's a problem here, though based on the evidence I can find on the internet. I suppose the bigger picture for me is that it bothers me when people immediately assume guilt without looking around at other evidence, first. It happens a lot in audio--maybe elsewhere, too. There's another thread here where someone immediately takes the self-blame route when they discover their Denon DL301 MKII has a droopy cantilever. "I must have bumped it while I was dusting!" Well, no. There's no "must have" connection if you don't remember doing it. Things break and not all expensive products are flawlessly produced. This is what customer service is for.

Whether it's audio or your car, don't blame yourself first unless you KNOW you did it. In this case, there's enough evidence for me to strongly suggest that no one did anything wrong even if there was some amount of time that backs were turned and it's easy to blame a pawn shop for mishandling for want of another explanation. I don't think OP knew that it was entirely possible that the stylus and suspension bushing actually could have just fallen out when he went looking for explanations as to what happened to the stylus.

I think we've all had situations for which we've been blamed and we kill ourselves fault-finding and we're actually dealing with crappy customer service and problem-solving. Like the time the auto parts company sold me the wrong drive shaft for my VW three times. It kept breaking. I kept ending up late for work as my car stalled with yet another broken drive shaft as I crossed over railroad tracks on the way to work. I even got a warning from my boss about my "personal problems affecting the job."

Turns out the parts catalog was wrong so they kept giving me the drive shaft for the previous model year Jetta which was 1/4" shorter than the one I needed. Since there is some play in a drive shaft, I had no problem bolting everything up. This is a two to three hour job, by the way. You have to remove the wheels, brakes, starter and some other parts to get to the driveshaft, plus you have to drain the transmission oil.

The auto parts store was more than happy to point fingers at me and my mechanic skills, but continue to exchange the part, yet even they gave me a warning that the third one would be "the last one." I was the one who had to do the legwork and figure out what the real problem was and this was before the internet, so it wasn't easy. I finally asked for the part number for the earlier version of the car and the guy told me the same part number I was being given. Then I had him give me the part number for the year after my model year, and it was different. I knew which Jetta I had, so I took the later year part and it never broke again. In the meantime, I was out all that repair time and good will from my boss at my new job plus the stress. This was before cell phones, too. When my car broke down, I had to go knocking on doors and ask to borrow some stranger's home phone.

That's what blaming myself at first got me.

I realize this scenario is a bit different, but to me it's the more the same than not. Something is fishy with the 2M Black stylus and Ortofon knows it.
Click to expand...
Very well written. Now that I think about it, the turntable that had the tonearm pressed against it was not the Technics this thread is about, but rather an unrelated Thorens TD 165. I apologise for my terrible memory. I don't think the pawn shop had mishandled it, they get turntables and HiFi equipment in regularly. It had the stylus when it was put up in the back, I watched them do so. I also watched them take it down. I really don't think anything sketchy went down, it was wrapped up in Saran wrap and took me 15 minutes to remove it which would probably be too much work for someone doing something they shouldn't. What needlemeister said is exactly what happened to me: I noticed the stylus was gone when I got home, upon further examination the entire assembly just slid out of the stylus housing as I was looking at it. Even if someone dropped the needle, it would take a ton of force to not only remove the diamond tip but also fracture/damage the structural integrity of the entire cantilever so that it slides out with no resistance. Definitely not impossible, and it's definitely just as likely (if not more so) that someone mishandled it. However I don't see how that could have happened, the pawn shop while not a bunch of geniuses certainly don't make money intentionally damaging things. Once again, I am not necessarily placing blame on Ortofon is this particular case, however I don't want to blame the pawn shop either. I will reach out to Ortofon again, and see if I can get a bit of a discount at least. And to those who think I'm ripping off Ortofon: I highly doubt it takes every bit of that $1000 to manufacture that stylus. I also would be buying another stylus from them, which I wouldn't do otherwise, which means more profit.
 
needlestein said:
First, the Ortofon 2M Black cantilever is not boron. It's aluminum alloy like the rest of the line, so it's not going to fracture easily. If OP said that the alloy cantilever was broken, bent, snapped, etc.,I'd be right with you. This would be obvious evidence of mishandling. But when OP puts up a photo of just a hole in the stylus where the cantilever and suspension once were, that's different.

But the fact is, I was already well aware of two posts, one here at AK I believe and one at another forum from two different horrified posters who wanted to know if they did something wrong and/or if it was normal for the cantilever of a 2M Black to just slide out during routine cleaning. That tells me something. I'm pretty thorough in my forum reading, although I've moved away from the second site recently. There have been no similar posts to my knowledge regarding the other models, so there's something going on with the 2M Black.

Putting this into context with the OP's posts and photos of a cantilever and suspension bushing simply "missing," I would not rush to judgment that the stylus was mishandled by the pawn shop. We see evidence of mishandling all the time, but when does that ever include the entire suspension pulling out? I can't think of any, myself. But I can think of three instances of this happening with the 2M Black, giving posters full credit for their stories, of course. I wasn't there, but the two other stories were the same. "I was cleaning it with the brush very gently, and the cantilever came out! OMG! What did I do?!"

How is this issue so different from the other reported 2M series issue of "the removable terminal pin?" It seems that there have been plenty of reports of the terminal pins just sliding out when a user is disconnecting a headshell wire. Some also say that this is obvious evidence of user mishandling. No way. It's cheap build quality and QC breakdown.

The fact that the OP got a good deal on the turntable package is a red herring; it has no relevance on the issue of what happened with the Ortofon stylus and whether or not it is yet another one that was assembled with a loose cantilever. Sure, the pawn shop could have handled it better, maybe. Maybe the pawn shop also handled the turntable well. They probably see a lot of turntables and know not to mess up the cantilever by now. I got my SL-1200 from a pawn shop and the 980-HZS that was attached to it, and they sent it in the mail, and they did a perfect job and everything came to me totally intact.

Now, it's up to the OP whether or not he really thinks the pawn shop messed up the stylus. If he thinks so, then just buy a new stylus of some kind and move on with life. But if there's doubt, and I think there is plenty, that the pawn shop did anything wrong, and if there is also evidence that the 2M Black cantilever/suspensions do "just fall out," which there is, I don't see why he shouldn't call Ortofon customer service and have a discussion.

Does a warranty extend to the OP if he's not the original purchaser? I think that's another red herring. If a product is defective, it's defective. Warranties are to protect manufacturers, not consumers. Most manufacturers would not allow for any reasonable kind of warranty at all if it weren't for consumer protection laws, and the warranties that do result from consumer protection laws are barely reasonable. Competition does not seem to pressure manufacturers to offer better warranties--the trend is quite the opposite, in fact.

To me, there are enough unknowns and enough expense here to make a call to Ortofon customer service. I wouldn't be dishonest, but this is a significant expense. If we were talking about an Ortofon red, I might simply advise to get a new stylus and leave it at that. If Ortofon say, "No way, Jose!" well, you have your answer. In that case , if you can't afford a 2M Black stylus other options are to get a Blue or Bronze stylus. I got my 2M Bronze cartridge for less than $300 brand new. These deals are easily found on ebay. Good used ones have sold for just over $200.



You might. Nothing wrong with that. Good people don't like to feel like they're taking advantage, so you might decide to walk away and be happy anyway. But consider this: the pawn shop probably got the TT for $100. Pawn shops are in the business of taking advantage, so I wouldn't really worry too much about. They wouldn't have let it go if they weren't making a return on their investment.

Just like the guy who sold me the Ortofon Quintet--it was described as 100% operational. Some people criticized me that I should have known what I was getting into. Not if something is described as "100% operational," I think. Yes, I took a chance, but that doesn't mean you allow someone to walk away with selling you something they know doesn't live up to the 100% operational statement they made in order to entice you into taking a risk. In the end, I repaired the cartridge and it is now 100% operational. I had no idea I'd be able to repair it. In the course of the repair, it became obvious to me that the seller had already tried and failed.

I could have easily felt like I took advantage anyway. I ended up with a 100% operational $1,000 cartridge for less than 50% retail--but he was trying to take advantage of any potential seller with the "100% operational" statement and it's likely that if he listed it honestly, I'd have been able to get it at auction for even less money.

In the end, all of this is totally beside the point. The damage to that stylus does not look like abuse to me. It looks like another case of the cantilever and suspension of a 2M Black simply falling out. It's not an unknown issue. I can't think of another cartridge or stylus that exhibits this odd behavior (except for maybe some reports of very cheap aftermarket replacement styli) and I've been around for a while. I don't think it should matter if the OP bought the cartridge new, or used, or if it came as part of a deal with a turntable. Even if the OP was straight up given the cartridge for free, it's still defective. All of those other details cloud the issue.

In the end, it all comes down to whether OP can convince Ortofon to give him a new stylus at a discount at least. I'd try to get 50% at least, given the doubt. It's worth a shot. See if Ortofon would be willing to meet half way. That's fair.

Here are just a few links to people reporting many, many problems with the 2M Black. I know I said I don't go to a certain site anymore, but I had to dig these up. So while I appreciate the words of caution, the fact is that Ortofon products are falling apart on people.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=82991

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=90667

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=63512

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....e-niddle-while-cleaning.753838/#post-10254456

Quintet:

(Read the comments in this link to an article)
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ortofon-quintet-cartridges/?2=&page=2

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=95291

You could say that these few posts are isolated incidents, but Ortofon has gone back and redesigned the Quintet so that the shell cannot simply drop off. The design change is obvious.

Perhaps the 2M Black flaw has been addressed, but this fix would not be so visible and obvious as the fix to the Quintet series.

I have not seen any references to other 2M cartridges in the line having the problem of the self-ejecting suspension/cantilever assembly. It seems to be a 2M Black thing.

The Quintet thing seems to involve more Quintets than the Black. I'd look for more references, but Ortofon has addressed it, so it isn't about proving it. Ortofon must have gotten plenty back along with complaints.

To me, this is less of a warranty issue and more of a recall issue. Whatever car you have, however you got it, when there's a problem either with design or manufacture, it gets recalled and the item gets repaired at the manufacturer's cost. If you got the car for free, resurrected it from a junk yard, or bought it new, you still get the repair because there was a problem and it affects the vehicle.


Why is this any different just because the buyer bought it at a pawn shop for a good price and didn't see the cantilever and suspension drop out? The cartridge is defective. End of story.
Click to expand...

I have spent the last 10 days in Japan, and never really did adjust time wise. So I have been up at 2 AM posting on AK when I should be sleeping. Yes the 2M Black is an aluminum cantilever, but it is also not a $1K cartridge like that number being bandied around was. It is a $700 cartridge The $1000 cartridge in the Ortofon line is the Quintet Black, which until recently did have a boron cantilever. But that is all sorted out now.

But you are right about one point. Ortofon has no legal responsibility to warranty a cartridge acquired in a second hand purchase. That responsibility ends with the original purchaser. And a proof of purchase and date is needed to determine if warranty coverage is still in effect.

As far as what happened to this cartridge, it really is just conjecture. Could it have been a manufacturing failure? Sure. Could it have suffered some mishandling? Sure. The only way to know is to send it off for inspection and see what examination shows. One thing that every cartridge manufacturer faces is that the vast majority of cartridge owners who FUBAR one never make a mistake. The cartridge always just falls apart on them, and "please will you cover this under warranty?" Of course there are honest people who say hey I screwed up, but its not the norm. That's why any cartridge company I know of says send it in for inspection and then we can determine what the solution is.

But now we got a different story of what has happened, and if the memory is faulty to start with, then what makes the second scenario any more reliable? Nothing really. Which brings it back to an inspection to see if there is any residual physical evidence. Heck the stylus could have been bent by the previous owner and straightened, and over time fatigued and fell off. There is more than one possible explanation for this, and nothing can be ruled out until its inspected.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
needlestein: All I wanted to point out was that it seems to be common enough in audio forums lately for these odd 2M Black stylus stories to pop up.

That is really odd, especially if the same thing doesn't seem to be happening to the Red, Blue or Bronze. My understanding is that the Red and Blue share a body type, and the Bronze and Black share a tweaked version of the same body, with a higher quality of wire in the windings and selection to closer specs.

The Black does track at a slightly lower pressure, 1.5 instead of 1.8 grams, so one might conjecture that there's a somewhat different suspension material on that model that could make it more prone to failure, but then-- the Bronze has the same tracking pressure recommendation, suggesting it uses the same part.

Manufacturing screw-ups certainly do occur, and there might be one here, but--- the question is how many failures have there been vs. how many units were sold? The 'net allows people to post when they've encountered an issue, but obviously you won't find many people posting spontaneously that "Mine works fine!", unless it's in reply to someone on a forum like this who's had problems.

Unfortunately, only the larger sellers or distributors or the manufacturer know the actual failure rate of the product and they're not likely to dispense that info. I've had good results with Ortofon carts, but my sales volume of them is very modest, as I'm a service tech and not a retail store, so my numbers would inherently be skewed. Plus, I setup and objectively test, both with test gear/records and listening, any cart (or stylus) I set up on any 'table I repair, so if there's a defect, I usually find it before it goes back to the customer. And manufacturing defects certainly do occur with any manufacturer, not just Ortofon, and did back in the heyday of vinyl, not just in current times.
 
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