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5AR4: Sovtek, Shuguang, or other?

Thespeakerdude8 said:
dude...its just a rectifier. A properly designed amp should NOT show any change in sound with different rectifiers.
What does change the sound, is internal resistance (which varies by tube), and that affects how much voltage the tube drops and/or how the amplifier will respond to transients. Maybe mullard had different internal specs, but I wouldn't go insane on a rectifier tube. Just get one thats gonna be reliable. JJ makes a 5AR4 repro that can be had for $15.
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Dude, sorry but i'm afraid I will have to suggest that you dont know what your talking about. The Mullard Will sound and perform better. It is a good investment, they last forever and will save your amp from any damage that may occurr when and if it fails. JJ is not reliable at this time.

You have to understand, when you listen to the amp, you are listening to the power supply being modulated...anything you do to the power supply is noticeable, and definately the type of rectification will make a difference. The Mullard is far from "just a rectifier" its legendary, and for good reason.
Hell, even solid state rectification varies in sound depending on whether its standard, fast recovery, slow recovery, etc.

By the way, JJ is probably the worst possible choice you could make in terms of reliability. They have made some good ones in the past, maybe they'll get it together. If you dont believe me, ask Jim Mcshane for an honest opinion, he has forgoten more than I know, and is in a postion to evaluate tons of tubes. Plus, he is as honest as the day is long.

Is his rectifier going to make a tremendous sound differece? No. It wont, but it will sound better and will last and last. That's why they are expensive and sought after.

I might inquire from the original poster as to the size of the first cap in the power supply after the rectifier?

I had good luck with some Sovtek 5ar4 tubes when they first came out, they didnt have the bass or nice round sound of the Mullard, but they didnt fail either. That was in the 90's, cant say now. I only use the Mullard for 5ar4 use

Russellc
 
I have a question. If people think a rectifier makes no difference in sound then why do people pay huge money for custom power cords? I really don't have the technical expertise to know this is a serious question.
 
custom power cords? Because those people are misguided... apparently it hasn't occured to them that from the generation plant many miles, even hundredsof miles, of wire, to house wiring to wall socket, the last 4 feet of unobtanium power cord wire or whatever nonesense snake-oil is being peddled, won't matter worth a bucket of warm spit. If more "audiophiles" actually had a real science education, this kind of pure charlatanism wouldn't survive the light of day. Roger Anderson, Vacuum Tube Valley writer, (VTV-RIP?) Binghamton NY home of McIntosh Labs
 
NOSValves said:
They do go for $100+ new which is what was mentioned here. Used is an entirely different game.....Buyng a used rectifier is a gamble. Tube testers tell you just about nothing of the health of the tube when it comes to rectifers. I've seen many a rectifier test just like new in my Hickok and arc over under load in a known good working amplifier. Most tube testers just do not place enough load on them to show full load flaws. Chances are you will do just fine with your purchase but some amount of gambleling is involved when buyng used tubes of any type or manufacturer. Thats why they are cheaper to purchase.

Craig
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Boy thats the truth! Everyone I put in the Hickock tests "way strong"...too bad I cant count on that. I have had really good luck buying used Mullards though, maybe they'll make a decent clone like they have some of the other mullards, I hope so.

Craig, what do your mono blocks use for rectification?

Russellc
 
fairchild said:
custom power cords? Because those people are misguided... apparently it hasn't occured to them that from the generation plant many miles, even hundredsof miles, of wire, to house wiring to wall socket, the last 4 feet of unobtanium power cord wire or whatever nonesense snake-oil is being peddled, won't matter worth a bucket of warm spit. If more "audiophiles" actually had a real science education, this kind of pure charlatanism wouldn't survive the light of day. Roger Anderson, Vacuum Tube Valley writer, (VTV-RIP?) Binghamton NY home of McIntosh Labs
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+1 :thmbsp:
 
RWFE said:
I have a question. If people think a rectifier makes no difference in sound then why do people pay huge money for custom power cords? I really don't have the technical expertise to know this is a serious question.
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I see what you mean....same with speaker wire, there's a bazillion feet of wire wrapped around the voice coil, but the 8 ft or so from the amp to the speaker makes a difference? I swear I hear differences:scratch2:.

The one that always got me were the little (and way expensive) "dots" that you place on components which allegedly make all the difference in sound of a component. I went through the expensive cable game in the 80s-90s. I came out of it feeling there is a difference between quality wire, say 6 nines and or oxygen free, and crappy stuff that turns green in a month or two. I find no value in the multi 10s-100s of dollars a foot stuff, after using a quality copper for the wire and a quality dielectric, I feel the rest is snake oil. I never got into the power cord thing, so really cant speak to that, but have my suspicions. Mainly I deal with vintage stuff or tube stuff based on vintage notions. I have found that trying impliment an "improved" cord usually meant a 3 conductor cable, and the ground wire would cause ground loop problems, so I lifted the ground leg.

Russellc
 
Russellc said:
Boy thats the truth! Everyone I put in the Hickock tests "way strong"...too bad I cant count on that. I have had really good luck buying used Mullards though, maybe they'll make a decent clone like they have some of the other mullards, I hope so.

Craig, what do your mono blocks use for rectification?

Russellc
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They use a 5AR4 and I supply them with Sovteks and tell every customer to have a spare on hand ;). They usually last a couple years if the user isn't one that constantly shuts the amps on/off/on fiddleling with his system. I've found turning an amp on with a slow start rectifier in a hot state is asking for trouble.

I personally use Mullards in my own amps because I tend to have to turn my gear on/off/on more then most folks trying other gear I'm wokring on. My last "used" Mullard failure was after 5 years in my amps....


Craig
 
How much sonic difference a tube rectifier will make in an amp is directly related to the power supply design of the amp. Most vintage amps with original power supply designs will benefit from a better rectifier since the rectifier is not decoupled by large filter banks & chokes from the rest of the circuit and even then the difference may not be audible until the amp is pushed hard. In my amps in electrical terms the rectifier is effectively miles away from the audio circuits of the amplifier. I'd be shocked if someone could hear the difference in a Mullard in a blind test. As in all things audio milleage varies.....
 
fairchild said:
custom power cords? Because those people are misguided... apparently it hasn't occured to them that from the generation plant many miles, even hundredsof miles, of wire, to house wiring to wall socket, the last 4 feet of unobtanium power cord wire or whatever nonesense snake-oil is being peddled, won't matter worth a bucket of warm spit. If more "audiophiles" actually had a real science education, this kind of pure charlatanism wouldn't survive the light of day. Roger Anderson, Vacuum Tube Valley writer, (VTV-RIP?) Binghamton NY home of McIntosh Labs
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Depending on the actual design of the finished product, they could make a difference if you were having RF and some other issues. Or, if they contained some type of capacitance design to reduce frequency issues, etc.

But, I'd rather put my money into a good quality double conversion sine wave output UPS. That system won't play unless it's powered, right?

. . Falcon
 
Russellc said:
I see what you mean....same with speaker wire, there's a bazillion feet of wire wrapped around the voice coil, but the 8 ft or so from the amp to the speaker makes a difference? I swear I hear differences:scratch2:.
Russellc
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I think there is a difference between wire in the signal path and wire in the mains. The power cord brings electricity to the amp that is then transformed, rectified, filtered, and only then distributed to the various active and passive components in the signal path. The only thing that "should" be coming into the amp is a steady AC voltage with a steady frequency, without noise. Of course it isn't going to be that pure, but a "better" power cord isn't going to change anything for the better. The wire between the amp and the speaker (or any other interconnect) is transferring a much more complex signal and could more easily affect the quality. That said, I'm also a skeptic when it comes to some of the really esoteric high dollar interconnects. I think there a lot of dubious claims being made in the interests of justifying very high profit margins.
 
We all know where these cable debates go!!

Some have said there peace, some believe some don't, some hear it some don't.

----

Let's leave the cable debates for another forum please!
 
Opinions Are Like... You Know The Rest!

It's all relevant to what you think is good or what sounds good. Just like speakers and other audio equipment. There's a lot of personal preference involved in what you buy or own. But I've yet to run across any better sounding and more dependable tubes than old ones. I'm sure there are some exceptions on a small number of certain newer reproduction tubes. Just about all those being preamp tubes; but really they don't compare to the originals all around. They lack something or another and seem to die a lot faster than older good ones. But in the whole scheme of things, you are wrong by assumming that I meant all newer tubes are junk. I was talking about comparing new vs. old in any tube (longevity, sound & stability). New ones are just not up to the standards that the old ones were. Period. Go right ahead and buy all the new ones you want and that will leave more old good ones for us die-hards. We don't mind at all! :D

Jim McShane said:
The current production power and small signal tubes are FAR better quality than the current rectifiers. The rectifier situation is not good - the JJ is horrible quality, the Sovtek struggles above 450 volts or so, the Chinese tube is probably the best of the bunch but becaue they were so bad for so long people are afraid of it. As well, the supply is drying up - whether Shuguang is going to put it back into production or not is unclear.

Actually the Russian 5Y3s are pretty decent, but it's hard to get to worked up about the rest.

You are wrong calling the new production tubes junk - there is some great new stuff out there. But none of them are rectifiers.
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Thanks Jim for the useful feedback. This is what I love about the forum. If I try a new production 5AR4, it will be the Chinese. :)
 
The Sovtek 5AR4 in my LK-72 works better then the original weak tube that came with it, and has for a couple of years. Ten bucks well spent. I generally don't think I live a charmed life.
 
OK lets cut to the chase. I have had 2 Sovtek 5AR4 fail in my MKIII. Can capacitor is replaced driver board ie replaced everything checks out. Voltage off the rectifier is 535 vt. What do I buy?? JJ Tesla or another brand? I am looking for NOS tubes but my pockets aren't that deep! Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Maybe a silly question... with the questionable quality of current production 5AR4s, would there be any benefit to adding a socket and running a pair in parallel? Might need an additional filament transformer too, I suppose. The surgery might not be practical in many cases, but from a theoretical standpoint would this approach be a solution for amps that are for some reason hard on their rectifiers?
 
FWIW:I've been down the Russian, etc 5AR4 road to many times. There is a place called Vintage Tube Services. Take a look at the site. I needed a 5AR4 and was not going down that path again. So for about 80.00 I have a Mullard "last forever" .
 
Lots of good comments in this thread.

I also find benefit in the Mullard and Philips plant 5AR4s over the current production. While good workable Sovtek and Sino/Shug are out there, they are inconsistent. I buy Sovteks in 10 batches simply because I assume spares will be necessary - I might toss a couple-three out of those 10 pretty early. My NOSValves VRDs tell me pretty early if the 5AR4 isn't well. I now use NOS for those exclusively, and only keep the Sovteks on hand for test/service situations where I want a cheap tube to use. They DO work, but with a higher percentage rate of "weeding out" the less than optimal tubes.

I also have been good at finding Philips/Mullard factory tubes at less than dealer prices. If one looks for clear glassed tubes with full flashing and minimal pin markings on the various resale sites, those tubes probably have 80-90% of thier lives left for 50% of the cost. I have spent an average of $40-50 on my Mullard/Philips 5AR4 stock, including 9-ish fatbases and NOS gems like 1958 Sittard/Philips tubes and other mid '60s Mullards too. All in NOS or very light use condition. All screened by my local tube pro, then run in my VRDs for a few power ups/listening sessions to be sure they are good. Out of 25ish such 5AR4's I have ONE that didn't pan out. It was quite easy to make pairs out of the fatbase 5AR4s as they tested pretty consistently across all of them. I think it's safe to say I've got 5AR4s til I'm dead.

In addition, there are some of the finer details in the music that I find the NOS rectifiers good for, even in my VRDs. A more "black" background and a smoother edge detail to the music being the primary benefit. It's not huge, but it's there.....but mostly I prefer the old Mullard/Philips for their known reputation for reliability. They are worth it for that alone.

I am a big fan of NOS whenever it is reasonable and available to use them. There are some current production success stories (the SED Winged C 6L6GC for example), but I prefer NOS brands when I can obtain them at a reasonable cost.
 
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