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70's ESS AMT Monitors....Anybody know these?

Nice set of AMT-1 Towers John. I saw those on the bay. All of these older speakers will benefit from new caps in the crossovers which are cheap at Parts Express. Just read the value off the old ones. Soldering the internal speaker wire crimps, check the solders on the crossovers, install new driver gaskets and reassemble. Deoxit the pots if dirty...
The AMT1 Monitors with the 12" and 12 passive were made in many versions. The first had accordion surrounds, then rubber Sonoprene, then foam. The wood veneered sides are attached over the actual speaker cabinet so these are very heavy and dead. This is good.
I have always wondered which models Nelson Pass worked on as the crossovers in these show a lot of thought. Many other speakers of this era had very simple crossovers in comparison.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
hey Gonzomeep
Any chance you could comment on the sound differences between your 1B pyramids and the monitors if any? Thanks
 
AMT Monitor vs. AMT1D

Wflint said:
hey Gonzomeep
Any chance you could comment on the sound differences between your 1B pyramids and the monitors if any? Thanks
Sure, They're 1D's BTW.
To my ears, the real difference is in the LF. Not in output in SPL's, but the ability to play a solid 5hz lower and it's quality. The Monitor has a larger enclosure volume and it's PR has a spider/cone instead of a flat disc, so it makes sense to me. I did some experimentation with the 1D's and installed a 12" JBL PR300 that also has a real cone/spider suspension and am pleased with the results, it really tightened up the LF like the AMT Monitors. So that may be one of the keys to a slightly better sounding AMT1A,B,C,D too. I'd like to mention a couple of key features of the big AMT's that is not written about much, and those are first, that these speakers are time aligned physically, i.e, if you turn them and look at the side view, you can draw an imaginary line vertically straight through the voicecoil/diaphragm center lines--cool-- and that the big Heil drivers are bi-polar,---no----, not like your uncle Fred, but they produce sound out of the front and back. Maybe they are actually considered di-polar (out of phase with each other), maybe a GURU can explain definitively which, which is which :D

P.S. Let me reiterate that they are all damn fine speakers. I could be happy with any of them just the way they are.
 
They are damn fine speakers and with some simple tinkering can sound even better.

Yes, the Heil is inherently a dipole (the front radiation is equal in intensity and opposite in polarity wrt the back radiation). Not that it was always used that way-- sometimes ESS deliberately threw the backwave away, cutting the tweeter's efficiency in half, but just like a ribbon or a Magneplanar, the Heil is a true dipole.

The magnets in the Heils were never Alnico, by the way, but ferrite.
 
wualta

Thanks wualta. I do have lingering questions though, tell me what you think. Since the Heil diaphragm is an accordion pleated transducer, it would seem that the phase of the rear radiation would be identical to the front. In conventional cone/dome di-pole speakers, there are two identical sets of drivers wired out of phase intentionally, right? There are companies that produce bi-polar speakers too, like Definitive Technology, that use an identical set of drivers (in an MTM configuration--BP3000tl) wired in-phase intentionally. Two schools of thought.
Now to the Heil, it presents a strange situation because it is one diaphragm that squeezes the air. It seems that the phase would actually be the same because the air is being squeezed in the same direction WRT emanation from the diaphragm, which seems in-phase, just facing opposite directions, unlike a conventional cone/dome di-pole arrangement that would have one driver pushing and the opposite/identical driver being pulled in.

Also, as I understand the basic method of measuring a speaker's sensitivity, the builder will put the speaker in an anechoic chamber, place a microphone at a calculated height and 1 meter away. One watt (2.83volts into 8 ohms) of pink or white noise is fed into the speaker and the resulting output level is measured and expressed in DB's. You wrote that when the Heil is used with an enclosed rear, it cuts it's sensitivity in half? If the standard test for sensitivity is measured in an anechoic chamber, the rear output would have no/nil bearing on the outcome, right?

Sorry for being so long-winded, but these questions puzzle me. I hope you will explain the correct answers. Thank you , I appreciate it :yes: .
 
Sorry to take so long with the answer. I'm not on AK very often these days.

gonzomeep said:
Since the Heil diaphragm is an accordion pleated transducer, it would seem that the phase of the rear radiation would be identical to the front.
Nope. It's an oversimplification, but you can think of it this way: As the front blows, the back has to suck.


gonzomeep said:
In conventional cone/dome di-pole speakers, there are two identical sets of drivers wired out of phase intentionally, right?
Right. Strictly speaking, these are not "true" dipoles, but close enough for gummint work. An ESS speaker with a big Heil on top is a half-dipole-- the tweeter's a dipole with a figure-8 radiation pattern, but the woofer is cardioid-shaped at the top of its range and omnidirectional from about 100Hz on down. Kind of a mess, really.


gonzomeep said:
There are companies that produce bi-polar speakers too, like Definitive Technology, that use an identical set of drivers (in an MTM configuration--BP3000tl) wired in-phase intentionally. Two schools of thought.
Prezackly.


gonzomeep said:
Now to the Heil, it presents a strange situation because it is one diaphragm that squeezes the air. It seems that the phase would actually be the same because the air is being squeezed in the same direction WRT emanation from the diaphragm, which seems in-phase, just facing opposite directions, unlike a conventional cone/dome di-pole arrangement that would have one driver pushing and the opposite/identical driver being pulled in.
The accordion model will lead you astray if you take it too literally. In the Heil, let's assume we can watch the pleats move during a simple sine wave. On the positive side, every other pleat "wall" (say, the even-numbered ones) is headed toward one magnet, while the alternate "walls" (the odd-numbered ones) are heading toward the other magnet. Then as the signal dips into the negative, the walls pull back and then head to the opposite magnet -- very different from a simple bellows. Each U-shaped pleat can itself be compared to a bellows, but the coordination of all the pleats in their magnetic field is more complex.

As a given pleat squeezes out air, its neighbor, facing backwards, is pulled open-- that is, it draws in air. Dipole. A peculiar dipole, I'll give you that, but a dipole nevertheless.

Don't take my word for it-- get two pieces of cardboard and reflect the backwave to one ear while your other ear gets a bounce from the front of the Heil. To do this experiment optimally, you'd want to hook the Heil directly to a small amp and carefully drive it with midrange frequencies, but I think you'll be able to hear that the front and back are out of phase even with the Heil still mounted on the speaker. Turn down the bass and treble to bring the midrange to the fore. Stick your nose right on the middle of the Heil's side.

gonzomeep said:
Also, as I understand the basic method of measuring a speaker's sensitivity, the builder will put the speaker in an anechoic chamber, place a microphone at a calculated height and 1 meter away. One watt (2.83volts into 8 ohms) of pink or white noise is fed into the speaker and the resulting output level is measured and expressed in DB's. You wrote that when the Heil is used with an enclosed rear, it cuts it's sensitivity in half?
Yep, the rear radiation is turned to heat inside the cabinet. Half the output is being thrown away. No problem in the real world, since the Heil is so much more efficient than the woofer it's likely to be paired with that this maneuver might just save the cost of a tweeter-level control.



gonzomeep said:
If the standard test for sensitivity is measured in an anechoic chamber, the rear output would have no/nil bearing on the outcome, right?
Theoretically right. But nobody listens in an anechoic chamber, which is why measurements have been done in normal rooms for many years now using gating on the mics and other such trickery.

Woofers, being largely omnidirectional, always have "rear" output. The lower the frequency, the "rearer" it gets.

Outdoor speakers for concert reinforcement-- that's a different story. They operate in what's effectively an anechoic space, and to put tweeters on the back of such a speaker would obviously be... ..well, to be kind, let's call it uneconomical.

And if you take your speakers outside and play them on the lawn, you'll notice the bass seems to be missing.

A real room acts as a collector of the total output of a speaker, so for it to sound "flat", there should be just as much treble and midrange energy pumped into the room as bass, and phase doesn't matter, since all the reflections in a real room will scramble that anyway. What we end up measuring is what the speaker mavens call the power response of the speaker in a defined chunk of space. If you've heard me rant about "room boom", that's what I'm talking about. Using a Heil or any other kind of dipole or bipole tweeter is a handy way of adding some treble to the power response of a speaker without making the speaker sound too bright. A dipole tweeter will have the added effect of making the stereo image spread out a bit, giving an extra sense of space, which may or may not accord with the sound originally recorded.

Does that make sense? By the way, thanks for pointing out that ESS is finally out of business. The website takes you to Simply Speakers now. Hard to believe. End of an era. Hats off, gentlemen, and hang onto your Heils! Oskar, we hardly knew ye.
 
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Splendid response wualta !

Clear and concise. I was not aware of the switch from anechoic chambers for sensitivity testing. I think your response makes enough sense to take your word for it about it all. I agree about the ESS/Sac plant going bye-bye, we sure had it good for 30 years. Dirt cheap killer speakers. I'm gonna hang on to my AMT1D's and TOTL AMT Monitors for a bit to see if the market will react to the $4.5K cost of their German replacements. Thanks for taking the time to answer those nagging questions, Happy New Year, Steve G.
 
Kegger said:
Having said all that maybe they are a little thin sounding in the midrange department. I also have 1 bad heil on each side so I have 3 running on each and thinking of a redo. Now with what most seem to agree on and me having 1 bad heil on each I'm thinking of just running 2 heils on each and replacing the other 2 with like 6.5" cone drivers. That would give me 2 spare heils and should thickin up the mids.

I'm an experimentor and speaker rebuilder so this really doesn't bother me. I just need to figure my best approach. The way they are wired to start with is they take 2 8 ohm heils wire them in series then take the other 2 and do the same gives you 2 16 ohm pairs then they wire those in paralell to give you 8 ohms. I could redo the Xover if I have to but I like the 700hz for the woofers and figure I can experiment with midwoofs/heils by pairing the likes in series (2 6.5" in series and 2 heils in series) and try one of each in series (1 6.5" and 1 heil in series) then paralell those pairs to see what works best.

I'm thinking open baffle kinda (the top is open somewhat with a dampening material that is between the rear grill and the heils) for the 6.5" drivers.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Kegger,

I think you are on to a good idea..

What I would do is change the crossover to the tweets into the 3-5K range. Bring in some nice midrange drivers, like a spare pair (or two) of ADS mids.. and see where it takes you..

Not sure where your L880s cross on the bottom end, but I'd be about there to cross from woofers to tweets...

If you used 2 each (four) on the AMT-6s you could try using the 2 you remove in place of the ADS tweeters.. :scratch2:

Who knows...
 
well, speak of the devil's advocate...

Just to be difficult, y'know, I'd go the other way. Get 'em back up to original spec but add some [mostly] invisible improvements.

The midsize "dual-plate" Heil was used on a number of ESS and Concept speakers, including the amt-4, amt-Classic, amt-10B, Evaluator and others. Grab as many extra tweets as you can before prices skyrocket, if they haven't already. Get that whole arc of Heils working. Then baffle them so no midrange energy from the back can reflect or diffract around to come out the front and cancel out some of the front-radiation midrange. Seal them suckers in with black silicone. Round off any sharp corners by adding silicone or rope caulk.

Chances are, a speaker with this fancy-looking but useless "horn" on the front baffle has a version of your tweeters just behind it.
ESS_AMT10b_Tweeter-05a.jpg
Is the top of the amt-6 open to the rear, or did ESS intend that the Heils' backwaves would be absorbed by fiberglass stuffing?

Keep the 700Hz xover but bring it up to date (eg, Linkwitz-Riley). Examine the existing xover to see if ESS added any response shaping, as in the Fortura 12. Biamp if necessary.

Tighten the bass by adjusting stuffing and/or internal volume. Make sure the box is airtight.

Try a sort of phase plate directly in front of the woofer dust caps to try to reduce mid/treble beaming.

Speaking of Heils, I spent part of the morning searching for a good animation that would show the actual motion of the Heil. What I found was shameful, especially for a German site:

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Pictures/KB/Speaker/AMTAnimation.gif

This animation shows up everywhere. Maybe okay for a rough approximation, but jeez, talk about misleading. No wonder people are confused. The worst part is, I didn't find an animation that was any better.

However, the Japanese to the rescue. A company called TAKET makes a piezo(!) Heil (they spell it "Hyle"-- cute, eh? Look Ma, no magnets!). Anyway, they provide a decent non-animated drawing of the Heil's operating principle:

http://www.taket.jp/tech/tech.html
 
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All speakers will narrow their dispersion when the frequency wavelength is shorter than the diameter of the driver. This is not unique to a woofer in an ESS or any other cabinet. Dome tweeters have the dispersion of a laser beam at high frequencies.
I do not think the midrange of the AMT is poor but definitely tricky to match to a 10 or 12 inch woofer. Interestingly the dispersion of a 10 or 12" woofer will narrow to somewhat match the Heil at 800 hz. Transient response, coherence and other factors are not so easy. If you ever listened to the Transar it was obvious that there is nothing wrong with the AMTs midrange when the woofer was as open and quick. The AMT mounting in the Transar was high up and on a smooth baffle which seems to always work better. The later version of the large AMT with the cutouts top and bottom and the openings in the magnet structure that are the width of the actual diaphragm, really open the sound.
The bigger issue is the tendency for early reflections to blur the clarity of the AMT. Using modern sound absorbing material to the sides and on all surfaces in the rear as well as some sound absorbing material on the back side of the AMT enclosure work well. I do not like shutting off all of the back wave as this will create a non symmetrical load like dome tweeters have.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
Greetings and Happy New Year 2007 all!

What's the general opinion about using hemp-coned woofers with Heils? Would their more even response and SPL allow for a better midrange sound with current or mildly tweaked factory cross-overs? Supposedly, Hemp Acoustics is slated to release some interesting new 10", 12" and 15" products at the upcoming Vegas CES show.

BTW, does anyone know where I might find or obtain a copy of the schematics (factory or hand-drawn) for the AMT-1a, 1c, and/or AMT-3 crossover network? I've done a Google search and looked everywhere I can think of to no avail. Not looking for a handout and I'm more than willing to compensate for the time, effort, etc. :yes:

Many thanks,
the musher
 
While you're looking at the gaspingly expensive Precide speakers, be sure to check out the Heil headphone, the Ergo AMT.

You're right, Precide's animation is correct, but it sure is hard to see.


sleddogman said:
What's the general opinion about using hemp-coned woofers with Heils? Would their more even response and SPL allow for a better midrange sound with current or mildly tweaked factory cross-overs? Supposedly, Hemp Acoustics is slated to release some interesting new 10", 12" and 15" products at the upcoming Vegas CES show.
If you wanted to keep the original driver complement, a woofer designed to progressively decouple the outer parts of the cone at higher frequencies would be what you want-- in other words, a woofer designed as a fullrange. Many woofers can be flat on-axis; what is needed is a woofer that will match the very wide dispersion of the Heil at and near the crossover, which isn't easy. Ideally, you'd want the woofer to have a figure-eight dispersion pattern, but that's another trick entirely.

.
 
gonzomeep said:
ESS was all over the map with driver compliment in certain models. Attached are pictures of some models I've owned : AMT3 Rock Monitors with two 10" woofers in a sealed enclosure, 6.5" midbass and the big Heil, AMT 1D's, 2 way, with a 12" cast basket woofer/passive radiator, and AMT Monitors, basically the same configuration as the 1D's, but larger enclosure volume, they're bi-ampable and the passive radiator is built more like a normal speaker with a spider suspension instead of a flat disc suspended on a "ring". Of all these models, the AMT3 is the most balanced sounding to my ears and taste because of that dedicated midrange driver. Outstanding speaker. As far as the 2 ways lacking in the midrange, well, you can't beat a dedicated mid, but they're far from horrible. Just like the Altec Model 19, ESS designed the crossover with an equalization adjustment for mid boost and it works fairly well. Given some good clean power like the Yamaha M80 mentioned earlier, and the same level of quality source upstream, these speakers are very impressive. I've heard the same midrange issue over and over again. That's fine, if it comes from personal experience and not just the perpetuation of a rumor(no flame intended). Altec 604 series speakers cross over at a much higher point, so do Tannoy big dual concentric's and you dont hear much being said about their 15 inch woofers not being able to reproduce good midrange. ESS also produced a smaller monitor with a 10" stamped steel basket woofer and a Heil too, same goes for the AMT1 that is a ported enclosure stamped steel basket 10" and a big Heil. You could do a hell of a lot worse!!!


Great info there Steve and great pics...:thmbsp:

From the side-by-side pics of the Monitor and 1D, it would appear the Monitors woofer is slightly smaller than the 1D's...or it could be an angle/distance thing.

More interestingly though, it would also appear that the coil diameter of the woofer in the Monitor is bigger than the 1D's. I say this cause the center dome is wider in the Monitor. I would think should give the Monitor more control over the woofer which in turn should turn into cleaner reproduction throughout the range. That make sense?

Is the cross-over frequency in the Monitor and 1D the same (i.e. 800Hz)?

Do you know how much power the Monitors and 1D are rated at?

One last question. I thought the 1D's had the Heils with the aggressive teeth plates and that the cabinet had been darkened to a near-black color. Or did ESS upgrade the 1Ds at some point?

The reason I'm asking is that I bought a replacement Heil in 1994 for my AMT 1Bs. And the Heil had these aggressive teeth as well as plastic plates covering the magnets front and rear surface areas. Also, it would appear that the diaphragm in the 1994 Heil is different from the diaphragm in the 1B Heil. Is it safe to assume the 1994 diaphragms are better? And where can one buy these late style ESS diaphragms (not the yellow Mylar ones)?

Michael
 
Ess

Thanks Michael,

To answer your questions in order
1. The woofers are the same size, the baskets/magnetic structure are identical too. It 's the dustcap that changed. The 1D's dustcaps may not be stock. Usually, a bigger voicecoil adds powerhandling qualities than anything.

2. The models with the big Heil usually cross @ 800hz, although the AMT6 may have used a 700hz, I'm not positive about that, I think member "wualta" mentioned that earlier in this thread .

3. The very last of the Heils produced by ESS Sacramento use Kapton instead of aluminum w/ that mesh/net, and the "Teeth" are unique to them too. As far as them actually sounding better, I've owned both and the only thing I like better is that agressive look of the last model.

Someone on AK has posted about the newer style being offered for sale from the new european source for the ESS brand, I'll look for it and post it if I find it. All of the above, is to the best of my knowledge, regards, Steve G.

Edit: I just noticed that this is your first post. WELCOME to the best audio forum on the planet!
 
Yes, I just joined as I wanna get back into HiFi...:banana:

I used to an absolute nut about HiFi in the 70's and 80's.

Then I got married. Turned my life upside down in many ways. We moved into a tiny appartment where there was no room for two large ESS AMT 1B speakers.

Before I knew it, I had 10 other top priorities, little time for music, and so on.

But now I'm taking my life back...:yes:

So, thanks for the welcome Steve. I like this forum already. Damn hard to find any info about ESS on the web.

I've heard about the german company taking over ESS speakers, but have never been able to actually find the website or contact info. Much appreciate if do find it.

Michael
 
'Phrams-link

Try this place Michael: http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/oxid.p...05a9/cl/alist/cnid/50a4121dff598c2b0.50716260

or this place:http://www.lautsprechershop.de/english/index_hifi.htm

Also, use the search function that is located on the same bar as the "User CP". You can research to your heart's delight. Glad to see that you've got the passion back into your life. Listening to your favorite music on a decent system can really take the edge off a long day's work, or turn a so-so day into a good one :yes: . If I find that specific link I mentioned earlier, I'll post it.
 
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