800-C & 63'/'64 Executive owners PLEASE READ!!!!

[larryderouin]

I'm doing some research into some anomalies I found in an 800-C in a '63 Executive and am developing a theory about the service manual numbering.

What i'd like to get from anyone with an 800-C or an EXECUTIVE MODEL 950 (1963) or EXECUTIVE 960 (1964) is the following:

1.) SERIAL #
2.) POWER TRANSFORMER Part Number off the Physical Transformer.
3.) OUTPUT TRANSFORMER Part Number off the Physical Transformer.
4.) Which manual you used to work on your 800-C (Need the series numbering at the bottom or side depending on the design of the front page.)

It beginning to look like the 1963 EXECUTIVE Model 950 has a slightly different 800-C than the rest of them. Transformers are slightly smaller in laminations but endbells are larger(numbers are different), and the NFB circuit is different than any of the other manuals. The '63 Executive had a manual with a series on it that was not used anywhere else in the 800-C run. The '64 Executive used the 30001-39999 or 30001-49999 manual (they are the same). Which leaves us with the 20001-29999 series. I believe that the 20001-29999 series is the standalone series for 1963. With FISHER consolidating the Console and standalones in 1964, the numbering then makes sense.

I think this would go a long way to dating our individual units. So please write down the info and post it. I'll collate it and figure out how to make a spreadsheet(never needed to before now) with all the info on it.

Also if ANYONE HAS a manual with series numbers on it OTHER THAN the following please let me know. Eventually I want to put them all into the AK DATABASE in order.

10001-19999 (Exclusively Model 950 Executive)
20001-29999
30001-39999 (960 Executive is same)
30001-49999



Larry
.

 

[notdigital]

Both my units are above 36,000. I don't think that's what you want. If I'm wrong, let me know and I'll dig into it tonight sometime.

BTW: Where would I find the tranny number?

 

[perchdog]

Larry,

Please referr to the pic's below. The last one is a comparison shot between the Executive 800C and a 500C. Wow the difference in laminates is not very subtle, would have never even thought to look if not for this thread.

Btw, my 800C is in origanal condition, I have not done any restoration work on it yet.

Serial #

OPT

Power tx

Exective 800C vs 500C

 

[larryderouin]

Thanks Dave. The one I have here is # 10483A so your's may be as much as a week older. These are probably in the 1st 500 800-C's made.

Not Digital. The numbers are on the side covers (endbells) of the transformers themselves. (See perchdog's pictures.) Your's will probably be T991-115 for the POWER Trans and T-991-116A for the outputs. I just need verification of the serial and the transformer numbers.


It would have been nice if SAMS had done a FULL photofact on the 800-C instead of a sheet add on so we could get the specs for the transformers. One of the members dad worked on the line from 1964 to 1974 in Milroy where they made the 800-C's. He said his dad didn't remember any design changes so it could be something as inocuous as a supplier change. Makes sense to me, but I wonder is there a way to actually verify the voltage/amps of each winding without tearing it (the transformers) down. Seems to me that if the units are identical otherwise except for the NFB and speaker wiring circuit, the transformer specs should be predomently the same. The original question was "if one of these transformers is bad can we change it out with a 500-C or a different 800-C transformer"? Luckily we haven't had to find out, but the question still remains.



Thanks Guys this helps. Larry

 

[notdigital]

You're right. Both units: 36,XXX & 46,XXX have T991-115c for power; T991-116-1a and 2a for outputs.

 

[larryderouin]

So far we have

Perchdog's 63 Executive Serial # 10368A with t-990-115 and T990-116 (1963.)

NotDigitals 800-C 36xxx and 46xxx t-991-115C and T991-116-1A&2a (1964* and
1965*)

BugleGirl's 10483A with T-990-115 and T990-116 (1963)

My 800-C with T991-115 and T991-116 (it's inside the console right now will get soonest.).

Edit 4-2-13
BugleGirl's
SN: 48841 (1965)
OPTS: T991-116-1C & T991-116-2C (Stolen From 500-C But Same PN)
Power Transformer: T991C-115D

Red's:
Serial No.: 34955F (1964)
Power TX: T991-115
Output TX: T991-116-1 & -2
Service Manual: Fisher 30,001-39,999 (copyrighted 1963 -owner's manual also copyrighted 1963.)








(date with *) is theorized based one number series per year except for 1963 which had the 10001-19999 for the Executive console and the 20001-29999 for Standalones.

 

[TheRed1]

The 800-C in the Commander's Console:

Serial No.: 34955F
Power TX: T991-115
Output TX: T991-116-1 & -2
Service Manual: Fisher 30,001-39,999 (copyrighted 1963 -owner's manual also copyrighted 1963.)

The Commander put in the order for his console on Dec. 24, 1963 in Yokohama, Japan. The bill of sale notes a completion date of Feb. 28, 1964. I think it likely that my 800-C was produced in late 1963 to have made it to Japan in time for it to have been delivered in late Feb. 1964. With new models generally being introduced in the September proceeding the actual calendar year, my 800-C is probably considered a '64 model.

 

[larryderouin]

Based on what i've seen from the '63 model year the 10001-19999 series was strictly consoles. And the Standalones were 20001-29999.
For '64 all 800-C's were alike, both console and standalone So the 30001-39999
for '65 40001-49999
for '66 50001-59999
for '67 60001-69999
for '68 70001-79999 (which I believe was the last model year for the 800C. it may have been '69)

The 10001-19999 model so far was the only one's with a different nfb setup (grossly different than subsequent versions) and the different transformers. All subsequent versions up to and including the 49999 used the same transformers and had the same basic nfb circuit and speaker wiring with minor component changes. I'd like to see a manual for versions subsequent to the 49999 version to compare parts and circuits.

I've seen 1 800-C above 49999 and it was on here recently, but i can't remember exactly where. Manuals for any 800-C above 49999 seem to be rare also.

So if you know anyone with a 800-C above 49999 ask them to post here. I can make this a database for 800-C's also. Just change the database slightly.

Larry

 

[buglegirl]

Larry,

You want the Data from my other 800-C or do you have it already ??

SN: 48841
OPTS: T991-116-1C & T991-116-2C (Stolen From 500-C But Same PN)
Power Transformer: T991C-115D

Frannie

 

[Wharfcreek]

Yo Larry,

Got your note......by 800C is rather buried at the moment, but I'll move some stuff to get to it this week and update you with the requested info.

PERCHDOG: Just checking....but to confirm, the 'larger' of those two OTs belongs to the 500C, Yes?

Thanks

Tom D.

 

[larryderouin]

Tom; Thanks. I'll be looking for it. Also Correct on the outputs. They are the same # as the 20001 and up 800-C. It's not a big difference but noticable.

Larry

 

[dcgillespie]

Larry -- Interesting fact finding tour you are on.

Regarding verifying power transformer current and voltage ratings between different units, of course voltage is easy to confirm. For current, if the physical size is basically the same, and the winding configuration is the same, then a comparison of the DC resistance of the windings would be next. With all else equal, if the DC resistance is also similar, then current capability (madc) must also be similar, as the DC resistance speaks to the size of wire used for the winding. Of course, heater current for the various tubes and lamps used can be added up as well for an indication.

It also appears that you are chasing down changes in OPTs used during different production runs, just as I was for the 400 before starting my work on that unit. Since you've noticed a change during the 500 and 800 production runs, and looking at the bigger picture then, it would appear that there were changes in transformers for a number of Fisher products.

I think it's important to note that the mid 60's was hardly a time in the lives of manufacturers producing vacuum tube audio equipment, where they were (something like) "dedicated to ongoing research to develop the latest advances in .............". Heck by that point, any vacuum tube technology "research" they were doing was all geared towards figuring out how to either:

1. Convert the whole operation over to SS,

2. Bring the operation in for a soft landing, or failing those two options,

3. Get out without loosing their shirts.

Fisher was hardly any different in this regard. Therefore, I would imagine that most, if not all of this transformer jockeying around was due to:

1. Coordinating inventory reductions at Fisher,

2. Changes in transformer vendors to finish out production, and

3. Helping transformer vendors coordinate their own inventory reductions as well -- which potentially resulted in cost saving "buy outs" for Fisher in their final production runs.

It's also important to note that for all of Fisher's "extensive and pains taking research" in developing their lines of (at least) vacuum tube audio equipment (not meant in any derogatory way), that was all done early on. That is, different sections were developed, and then applied as "modules" if you will to the various models. Modules include:

1. Phono preamp circuit.

2. Line/tone stage circuit.

3. IF strip.

4. MPX section.

5. Power amp section.

6. Power supply.

I'm not saying that these modules were implemented exactly the same in every model, but any changes made were basically feature driven, rather than performance driven. Indeed, the schematics of the 400, 500, and 800 receiver, and many of their integrated amplifiers are very, very similar. Again, the point of this observation, is that it also supports the idea that any transformer changes were made of necessity to maintain production, rather than product improvement efforts.

Ultimately, it may be that the standard disclaimer that Fisher placed at the bottom of their specification pages for the various models -- "...........reserves the right to modify any design or specification without notice..........." -- had one meaning in the mid 50's, and quite another in the mid 60s!

Dave

 

[larryderouin]

Dave; The actual change was between the 10001-19999 series of the 800-c and all subsequent series of 800-c's. The 500-C Perchdog used was to demonstrate the size difference between the 990-116-1 & 2 (early 800-C) and 991-116-1 & 2(20001 and up 800-C and the 500-C). The Early (10001-19999) 800-C was the only series to use the "990" transformers and only used in the 63 executive, from what I can gleam from the manuals. I don't expect that they would be different enough to preclude transposing them, but they are noticably different. It also appears that the "990" and 991 series were used at the same time to produce console units ("990") and standalone(991) units.

It's believed that FISHER used a different serial # series to denote a production year for a particular model beginning with the 10001-19999 series. The second year would be 20001-29999 ad infinatum. However, with the 800-C, it appears that the 10001-19999 series was dedicated to the 1963 Executive console. and the 20001-29999 was used for standalone units produced at the same time for 1963. Going on that then
1964 = 30001-39999
1965 = 40001-49999
1966 = 50001-59999
1967 = 60001-69999
1968 = 70001-79999
with 1968 model year it's believed, being the last for the 800-C. Apparently there were enough of them in distributor inventory that you were able to get a brand new in the box 800-C still into the early 70's. With the 1800 model (multi voltage 800-C) produced for the military PX system until 1969-70, even more are out there.

So the changes are in the 1st model year and only between the Console version and the standalone. This is based on the manual's for the 10001-19999 (EXECUTIVE 950) and the 20001-29999. Surprisingly the 1964 Executive did not have a separate series (as denoted by manual serial #) and probably used the 30001-39999 series. Note that only in 1962, 1963, and 1964 was the Executive made with a "Single Chassis TUBE Receiver". The 800B in 1962 and the 800-C in '63 and 64. 65 was with a Tuner/pre combo with a separate amp (probably Hybrid), 66 was a custom for the cabinet single chassis and in '67 model year they went to the 31-R receiver which I believe is the 550-T.

So in addition to the possibilities you listed Fisher was also trying to figure out the design taste changes in the American public. Going from a Tuner/pre/amp to a receiver, to a Tuner/pre with an amp, and back to a receiver all in 5-6 years. And designing the Solid State Stuff in too. Women at that time didn't like a lot of knobs, levers, etc. They wanted simple to use. Apparently they still don't, unless it's a Kitchen appliance.

If we had the paperwork that went into all these changes we could probably figure this out fairly quickly. BUT! Sanyo had moved all of the archived paperwork to Northridge Ca. and stored it in a warehouse. And in 79 when the earthquake went thru there, apparently Sanyo tossed it all. So no paperwork on changes to gear or even the specs for the components. We're back to square one in trying to reverse engineer their thinking.

Larry

 

[dcgillespie]

Excellent work Larry. You're basically back to the same point I got to with the different OPTs used in the 400: Until all of these transformers can be made available for testing, we simply won't know!

Dave

 

[larryderouin]

I've actually got a 10000 series 800-C on the bench right now, waiting on parts. Also I can check my personal 30000 (I think) series 800-C. So we have the guilty parties.

Right now with the test gear or lack thereof that I have, I can check the DC resistance of the individual sections of each type of transformer (both power and output). Any thing else you can think I might be able to do with a DVM???


I've got a CIE 10mHz single input O'scope but have no sig-gen or know how to use it or a sig gen. I DO have a ISO full of test tones I can burn to a CD. then play through AUX??? I don't think that's gonna tell us anything without knowing how to use the scope.

Larry

 

[dcgillespie]

The best thing to do would be to measure the turns ratio of the two "guilty parties". If you need help, let me know. A Variac and a DVM are all you need.

Dave

 

[larryderouin]

I think I still have the e-mail from last year when you asked me to do a turns ratio for I think it was an 800-c. I'll take a look see later today.

 

[larryderouin]

Bump

 

[dcgillespie]

Do you still need the procedures for checking the turns ratio?

Dave

 

[larryderouin]

Do you still need the procedures for checking the turns ratio?

Dave

Yeah. You have my email still I think. but I'll send you a "TEST" email with the address.

Larry