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81 Citation check out this altered beast!

quaddriver said:
well I talked to the guy for a while, its a bit out of my range....its drivable as in around the block to test it, but not for the 1000+ mile trip Id have to make, which leaves me having to run a truck down and back towing it on a dolly adding great cost.

But if you are local, he did everything right, its waiting for the getrag 5 spd. he used the later ECM and disabled it for the body computers and 4t60E.

The price is right, if you are local - go git it.
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Getrag might be good IIRC some of the early 4t60E may have had some TC lock release switch problems.(one of them did) and that made them stall at a stop (easy to diagnose motor wanted to jump out when it did a rolling stall and the car didn't want to stop :)... These days the shysters and the media would be all over it :)
I remember the early TH125 breaking pump shafts not hard to change ,just jack the car up on the left side and pull the valve body and change out the shaft kit that way :yes:
 
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I always just figure the first year of anything is the extended beta test period. Give it a year or so to hammer out the bugs and it usually works.
 
gadget73 said:
I always just figure the first year of anything is the extended beta test period. Give it a year or so to hammer out the bugs and it usually works.
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took quite a bit linger for X bodys and electromechanical carburetors and the related sensors and ECU :yes:


OTOH the mid 70's (real) Cad Seville's 1957 Bendix based fuel injection was pretty durable and maybe 1 of 3 -4 things would fail and that included the ECU and the fast idle heater............Simple to diagnose , not a bad system IMO I think emissions killed it or just technology although GM went cheap with unfortunate electro mechanical carburetors along with Chrysler and Ford Motor with worse ones .


The GM Rochesters were so bad and so lean off the line and always hunting to slow they also applied teflon to the carburetor bores at the throttle plate depth on the production lines or likely instead the Rochester carburetor plant and if you used carb cleaner and washed the teflon out *( if they would idle ) they went crazy lean and made it hunt worse and shot the HC emissions through the roof .

Aftermarket techs would just keep hanging parts on them even catalysts if they weren't smart it eventually made it to a TSB but I learned it at GM school before they hit the streets.

OTOH the full mechanical late 60's through late 70's Rochester quadrajet IMO was the very best production 4 BBL if knew how to service it,build it and jet it you get it right you can start a small block with an RV or similar cam with a touch of the key before you get your hand off the key .....make you throw rocks at anything else not to mention I think the mid 60's to 70-72 GM were pinnacle of modern ordinary cars in general along with the Benz 68-76 W115 ,W114 and 71-76 Benz W 123 setting aside modern technological /safety advances :yes:

We used to call that schoool Generous Motors because of the nice immaculate facility and all that went with that including absolutly outstanding instructors fully staffed ,cafeteria and free hot lunches and coffee ........ That was the GM we all knew and loved Generous Motors :yes:
 
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frankxbe said:
......

.... I think the mid 60's to 70-72 GM were pinnacle of modern ordinary cars in general along with the Benz 68-76 W115 ,W114 and 71-76 Benz W 123 setting aside modern technological /safety advances ....

.....
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I can't comment on the Benz models but for GM I agree. I don't have the knowledge of others posting in this thread. But based on personal experience and that of family and friends, I'd estimate the peak around 1969.
 
roger2 said:
I can't comment on the Benz models but for GM I agree. I don't have the knowledge of others posting in this thread. But based on personal experience and that of family and friends, I'd estimate the peak around 1969.
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That's close enough 69-71 that works for me by 1975 the boots of regulation and bad product decisions both sent them on a downward spiral for good while they've pretty much recovered from by now :thmbsp:
 
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roger2 said:
I can't comment on the Benz models but for GM I agree. I don't have the knowledge of others posting in this thread. But based on personal experience and that of family and friends, I'd estimate the peak around 1969.
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frankxbe said:
That's close enough 69-71 that works for me by 1975 the boots of regulation and bad product decisions both sent them on a downward spiral for good while they've pretty much recovered from by now :thmbsp:
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1970 was the high-water mark for performance cars. By 1971, they started cutting compression ratios, and "de-tuning" cars, adding air pumps and other smog crap, getting engines ready for lower-quality fuels.....the beginning of phasing out leaded gas had begun. By `72, real performance had been pretty well neutered....
In 1973, we had the first OPEC Oil Embargo (remember sitting in line for hours, waiting to buy $2 worth of gas ?), and the tidal wave of Japanese imports began. That was the beginning of the end. The Big Three just didn`t seem to get it....they just kept building the shittiest cars you could imagine, while the Japs ate their lunch. It took thirty years for them to pull their heads out of their asses and start building cars that might actually be competitive with foreign offerings....
 
MaxxVolume said:
1970 was the high-water mark for performance cars. By 1971, they started cutting compression ratios, and "de-tuning" cars, adding air pumps and other smog crap, getting engines ready for lower-quality fuels.....the beginning of phasing out leaded gas had begun. By `72, real performance had been pretty well neutered....
In 1973, we had the first OPEC Oil Embargo (remember sitting in line for hours, waiting to buy $2 worth of gas ?), and the tidal wave of Japanese imports began. That was the beginning of the end. The Big Three just didn`t seem to get it....they just kept building the shittiest cars you could imagine, while the Japs ate their lunch. It took thirty years for them to pull their heads out of their asses and start building cars that might actually be competitive with foreign offerings....
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The big three problems were a lot of things including not the least of which were the Japanese dumping cars here for less than it cost them to make them ,regulation and affordable technology divergence (behind the curve ) to that end , unleaded gas and engine valve seats ,rising fuel and raw materials costs

Yes persistent bad product decisions, the wrong product,bad product ,unfunded legacy pension and health and welfare liabilities ,labor and benefit costs (yes all this as a result of their stupidity) etc,etc.: they also had *some help getting to the toilet in addition to their persistent denial and stupidity

The early 70's japanese cars weren't that hot either just economical . :yes:
I never waited in gas lines (ever )........... knew the right people and often kept 200-250 gal on hand at a secret (safe) spot safely stored with real hand operated diaphragm fleet service fuel pump hose and nozzle :)

Other than what you didn't mention above most or all of that's true and smog pumps were on a lot of 1966 prod. vehicles and ofc the 1970 cars :smoke:
 
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onwardjames said:
I can never understand why threads about cars typically devolve into knowledge mudslinging.

I just want an LS1 in my Miata. Anyone care to do that on the cheap for me, lol?
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LS1 is a pretty serious challenge (the width of the motor makes it hard).

But, a Ford 302-based 347 stroker in a Miata? That's no problem! Due to the very narrow width of the Ford small-block, it goes in without a lot of mods!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcIcFPVF2x8

(note the "burn out" in third gear :thmbsp: )

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I remember my neighbor bringing a new X-11 Citation home in 1979 and trying to convince my parents that it was a better car than the '79 Toyota wagon they just bought (to replace another Toyota). He was a Chevy dealer and was always trying to sell cars to everyone on the block, but I don't remember many on the street. The Toyota had over 200,000 miles on it before my sister retired it, I don't remember too many Citations with that many miles.
 
sadly true no Citation would out last a Toyota though later 2.8s seem to run forever if maintained.
BTW the Citation is still for sale.
 
Thanks for the nice link, Gordon.

Since I'm unable to do the work myself, a pipe dream is all it is. Stroker 347....hmmmm.
 
I have this thing for what you are calling "polished turds". I owned quite a few cars that would surprise a vette or two......But my favorite "turd" of all time is the Ford Shogun...
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Stuffed a Ford Yamaha V-6 into the rear of this beast!
 
djwhy60 said:
I have this thing for what you are calling "polished turds". I owned quite a few cars that would surprise a vette or two......But my favorite "turd" of all time is the Ford Shogun...
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Stuffed a Ford Yamaha V-6 into the rear of this beast!
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Now, THAT is a very cool car (kinda like an updated Renault R5 turbo). Those look like Supertrapp pipes sticking out the back....:thmbsp:
 
Actually, I think it was a custom you could buy. Jay Leno owns it. Ford didn't actually build the Festiva in the first place. Kia made the body, and Mazda made the drive train. Just like my Ford Aspire.
 
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