A beneficial Technics tonearm mod that only costs $2.50...
- Thread starter cube-tube
- Start date
js1138
Super Member
I suppose that depends of how the damping is applied. The energy has to go somewhere. I suppose the goal is to convert to heat.
It's still something that should be measured. I can imagine all a kinds of foam and rubber applications that might work, but it would be useful to actually test them.
I think the discussion of low frequency resonance is relevant, because all the various damping mechanisms will have an effect on this.
jimreeves
Poopy & Me
The average tweaker can come away from this discussion thinking that any arm improves with user-added damping and needs to be wrapped up in something if it isn't manufactured that way already. I'm not sure this is correct, but could be worth trying to see if more is gained than lost.
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
The LF resonance will be affected by damping that affects gross motions of the arm relative to the record. Other things being equal, reducing audio frequency resonances in the tonearm does not affect the LF resonance, which is caused by a different mechanism.
damping audio frequency resonance in the arm by adding massy materials could move the LF resonance in the wrong direction by increasing the arm effective mass. Higher moving mass translates to a lower LF resonance. If the arm/cartridge LF resonance is already on the low side of the optimal 10 Hz number then incraesing the arm mass significantly could lead to mistracking on warped records, sensitivity to footfalls and other problems.
rnorton
Super Member
It adds to the effective mass of the arm, which will move the resonance a bit lower.
Kappaholic
Active Member
It's nice to know about potential issues with tonearm resonance and the potential remediation by applying padding, taping, wrapping, & rubber ringing the tonearm, but has any of the propose methods been tested?
Any playback recording sample of before & after? Perhaps audio sample of analysis or the ringing effect of the tonearm during playback?
Any playback recording sample of before & after? Perhaps audio sample of analysis or the ringing effect of the tonearm during playback?
gusten
Addicted Member
I always do recordings before and after I change anything, using the same records every time. It´s mandatory because one is so easily fooled. I don´t provide any samples in this case, this must be done by those who´s stating positive differences.
gusten
cube-tube
Super Member
After seeing all the confusion here about what's what and what effects what, let me throw something else out there.
My father and I worked on pipe organs for years, even built one from scratch and random spare parts from other "donor" organs. At any rate, to my point...
For any given pipe, the length of the pipe is what determines the resonant frequency at which it plays. It doesn't matter if the pipe is made with thin lead, spotted metal or thick, heavy wood. As long as the pipe dimensions are the same scale (diameter) and length, all of the different materials and thicknesses will produce the same resonant frequency.
So, with that said, given the fact that the length of the tonearm never changes, neither does the resonant frequency. It doesn't matter of you use heat shrink tubing, o-rings, tape, or a combination of all of those. None of them change the length of the tonearm.
What dampening does do is tame the resonant harmonics of the various materials that are used. The heavier the material, the lower the harmonics are going to be.
A couple things I'm think about which are used by many are things like the...
KAB "Resonance Cap" The cap "stops" the end of the tonearm much like the tuning stop on a pipe organ pipe. When you put a tuning stop on a pipe organ pipe, it double's it's effective length of which it speaks at. In other words, a Stopped 8' Diapason will speak at the same exact octave as a 16' Open Diapason.
So maybe if the tonearm is typically open and it's resonant frequency is 10Hz, putting that KAB cap on is possibly dropping the resonant frequency down to 5Hz.
The other thing I'm thinking of is the cotton sleeve that people use inside the tonearm. This one actually takes up room inside the tonearm, effectively making it thinner, or making it a smaller scale similar to what I mentioned with the pipe organ pipes. So the cotton sleeve could actually be raising the resonant frequency of the tonearm from say the same 10Hz to possibly 15, 20, 25Hz or more, depending on how much it really effects the internal volume of the tonearm.
Just a little food for thought.
My father and I worked on pipe organs for years, even built one from scratch and random spare parts from other "donor" organs. At any rate, to my point...
For any given pipe, the length of the pipe is what determines the resonant frequency at which it plays. It doesn't matter if the pipe is made with thin lead, spotted metal or thick, heavy wood. As long as the pipe dimensions are the same scale (diameter) and length, all of the different materials and thicknesses will produce the same resonant frequency.
So, with that said, given the fact that the length of the tonearm never changes, neither does the resonant frequency. It doesn't matter of you use heat shrink tubing, o-rings, tape, or a combination of all of those. None of them change the length of the tonearm.
What dampening does do is tame the resonant harmonics of the various materials that are used. The heavier the material, the lower the harmonics are going to be.
A couple things I'm think about which are used by many are things like the...
KAB "Resonance Cap" The cap "stops" the end of the tonearm much like the tuning stop on a pipe organ pipe. When you put a tuning stop on a pipe organ pipe, it double's it's effective length of which it speaks at. In other words, a Stopped 8' Diapason will speak at the same exact octave as a 16' Open Diapason.
So maybe if the tonearm is typically open and it's resonant frequency is 10Hz, putting that KAB cap on is possibly dropping the resonant frequency down to 5Hz.
The other thing I'm thinking of is the cotton sleeve that people use inside the tonearm. This one actually takes up room inside the tonearm, effectively making it thinner, or making it a smaller scale similar to what I mentioned with the pipe organ pipes. So the cotton sleeve could actually be raising the resonant frequency of the tonearm from say the same 10Hz to possibly 15, 20, 25Hz or more, depending on how much it really effects the internal volume of the tonearm.
Just a little food for thought.
flavio81
Turntable technician
With "resonant frequency = 10Hz" you are referring to the tonearm mass+cartridge compliance frequency, and there's NO WAY it can become 5Hz by the KAB "resonace cap".
Seriously, people are in a confusion between the tonearm TUBE resonances and the cartridge+tonearm SYSTEM resonance, and this will make things even more confusing to newcomers.
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Yeah, I've tried to untangle the two issues in several of my responses but they just get re-tangled. I'd hope that it would be clear that if a 16 foot long organ pipe has a resonant frequency of 31 hz or whatever, a 7 inch tonearm tube cannot have an acoustic resonance of 5hz.
But this whole thread could be really misleading to some people.
cube-tube
Super Member
The reason everyone is getting confused is because some people like to try and show off, spewing out a bunch of technical jargon that no one knows anything about, or possibly don't care about.
Quite honestly, I don't care one bit about what gets effected by damping a tonearm. All I care about is that it doesn't hurt the mechanics of the thing and that it improves the sound.
In the end, I don't chose/buy equipment to listen to the equipment. It's the music that I want to listen to, but if I can tweak the gear to get even better sound, that's what matters.
When I started this thread, it wasn't my intent to start a competition between who knows more than the other. I was just trying to make a friendly tip to the members here that very good improvements can be made on the cheap.
Quite honestly, I don't care one bit about what gets effected by damping a tonearm. All I care about is that it doesn't hurt the mechanics of the thing and that it improves the sound.
In the end, I don't chose/buy equipment to listen to the equipment. It's the music that I want to listen to, but if I can tweak the gear to get even better sound, that's what matters.
When I started this thread, it wasn't my intent to start a competition between who knows more than the other. I was just trying to make a friendly tip to the members here that very good improvements can be made on the cheap.
Kappaholic
Active Member
I would think most of everyone appreciates your information. I would guess most TT owners would definitely like a bang for the buck upgrade, especially when it improves performance. I for one love these upgrades.
Now the question to you is... Have you played around a bit and found the strategic location for the rubber rings? How many to use and where?
Now the question to you is... Have you played around a bit and found the strategic location for the rubber rings? How many to use and where?
gusten
Addicted Member
After seeing all the confusion here about what's what and what effects what, let me throw something else out there.
My father and I worked on pipe organs for years, even built one from scratch and random spare parts from other "donor" organs. At any rate, to my point...
For any given pipe, the length of the pipe is what determines the resonant frequency at which it plays. It doesn't matter if the pipe is made with thin lead, spotted metal or thick, heavy wood. As long as the pipe dimensions are the same scale (diameter) and length, all of the different materials and thicknesses will produce the same resonant frequency.
So, with that said, given the fact that the length of the tonearm never changes, neither does the resonant frequency. It doesn't matter of you use heat shrink tubing, o-rings, tape, or a combination of all of those. None of them change the length of the tonearm.
What dampening does do is tame the resonant harmonics of the various materials that are used. The heavier the material, the lower the harmonics are going to be.
A couple things I'm think about which are used by many are things like the...
KAB "Resonance Cap" The cap "stops" the end of the tonearm much like the tuning stop on a pipe organ pipe. When you put a tuning stop on a pipe organ pipe, it double's it's effective length of which it speaks at. In other words, a Stopped 8' Diapason will speak at the same exact octave as a 16' Open Diapason.
So maybe if the tonearm is typically open and it's resonant frequency is 10Hz, putting that KAB cap on is possibly dropping the resonant frequency down to 5Hz.
The other thing I'm thinking of is the cotton sleeve that people use inside the tonearm. This one actually takes up room inside the tonearm, effectively making it thinner, or making it a smaller scale similar to what I mentioned with the pipe organ pipes. So the cotton sleeve could actually be raising the resonant frequency of the tonearm from say the same 10Hz to possibly 15, 20, 25Hz or more, depending on how much it really effects the internal volume of the tonearm.
Just a little food for thought.
Sorry but this is no food for thought, it´s only confusing things. We really must keep aside different types of resonances, how they happen and at what frequencies.
gusten
gusten
Addicted Member
I see it more that people are lead to believe that you can just try and error and because of some coincident everything will get better. There is absolutely nothing wrong with experimenting, it´s fun and can lead to a better understanding and a better sound. The problem is always when we state we have found a solution to an issue, it´s always up for debate, and it should be so IMO, that is one good way of learning.
gusten
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In the end you cannot deny the science, which is why I breathed a huge sigh of relief when, having testes numerous interconnects, I came to realise the only differences were in the colour of the cables and plugs.
There's an awful lot of tweaks that do work, but only in your head, and there's also expectation bias. I'm not saying this is the case here, but there are an awful lot of tweaks that don't work on the scientific but do on the psychological level. That doesn't invalidate them - if it works for you, it works for you - yet it means they may not work for anyone else, so there's bound to be dispute.
What a bafflingly unnecessary post. If you're not saying that's the case here, then why on earth would you bring the incendiary topic of testing interconnect cables to this innocent thread? Especially since
(1) interconnects for turntables can cause easily measurable changes in many carts, making your point extra-irrelevant, and
(2) messing with your tonearm in any remotely significant way is also likely to have an easily measurable effect. Quantifying, explaining, and evaluating the effect(s) is trickier.
flavio81
Turntable technician
So true. Always good too keep in mind. :tresbon:
But there are reasons why arm tube damping should improve the sound. Most of the high end arms, by the way, incorporate arm tube damping (or resonance control) in one way or another.
jsisk
Not 2 Old 2 Rock & Roll
The reason why Technics says not to use a weight on the 1600SL MKII is that everything is suspended from the underside of the deck. Adding weight to the platter will reduce the acoustic isolation properties of the suspension system and cause the system to become unlevel as the springs on the left side will extend farther then the springs on the right side. The deck itself will remain level but the platter and the relationship between the tonearm and the platter will not unless you make the deck unlevel by adjusting the feet to compensate.
