A simple mod for the later H-K turntables
- Thread starter Pio1980
- Start date
Pio1980
AK Member
Not VTA at all, it's about having the record float just off the mat with only the rim nearly in contact. Essentially minimal VTA change for practical purposes. BTW, have you done the arm gimbal damper yet? The ITO demands it. BTW, if the TT with the Meitner floating record mod is in the same room as the speakers then the dust cover should be used with a book on it to help isolate the record from room acoustics.
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rnorton
Super Member
I 'might' be interested.
Pio1980
AK Member
E-mail sent.
Gravelyguy
Active Member
Pio,
It is now thundering in the land of lakes. I haven't been able to listen much more, but will say for now that this could really be something. One question. I usually listen with no cover on the tt. Are you saying to put it on and put a book over it or is my current method ok? I will try both ways, without sounds very, very, good in the little I have had a chance. Also, I read through the clamp thread. Very interesting reading. I am glad there are people willing to experiment and report results. I do not have the DD album but will be looking out for one.
Dave
It is now thundering in the land of lakes. I haven't been able to listen much more, but will say for now that this could really be something. One question. I usually listen with no cover on the tt. Are you saying to put it on and put a book over it or is my current method ok? I will try both ways, without sounds very, very, good in the little I have had a chance. Also, I read through the clamp thread. Very interesting reading. I am glad there are people willing to experiment and report results. I do not have the DD album but will be looking out for one.
Dave
Pio1980
AK Member
Hi Dave!
I played mine without the cover before the Meitner mod as the having the record 'grounded firmly to the platter made it non-microphonic. The Meitner mod leaves the record free of the platter mat and it would be prone to pick up airborn sound and transmit it to the cart. Having the cover in place puts a barrier between the speakers and the record/cart, the book renders the cover less sensitive to sound waves and damps it's resonance. The suspension isolates the plinth/cover from the playing apparatus.
The DD album was mastered by Stan Ricker at JVC on their CD-4 grade cutting rig, first rate work.
I played mine without the cover before the Meitner mod as the having the record 'grounded firmly to the platter made it non-microphonic. The Meitner mod leaves the record free of the platter mat and it would be prone to pick up airborn sound and transmit it to the cart. Having the cover in place puts a barrier between the speakers and the record/cart, the book renders the cover less sensitive to sound waves and damps it's resonance. The suspension isolates the plinth/cover from the playing apparatus.
The DD album was mastered by Stan Ricker at JVC on their CD-4 grade cutting rig, first rate work.
Gravelyguy
Active Member
Well, I haven't logged as much time as I would like, but I think that I listened enough to post my impressions on the latest mod.
First I tried to listen to a variety of styles of music. From my Columbia 6 eye mono Brubeck plays Brubeck to Several live recorded Rock albums. I also thru in some Classical and a little Elton John greatest hits to round things out.
In every case, someone in the listening group made a comment about how they felt like the stage was around them or they were in the middle of the concert. On the live recordings it seemed like the musicians were playing out in the middle of the room. We noticed a much more defined and life like rhythm section. On Elton John's Rocket Man it was almost distracting. The drummer, I think, was adding a side of the snare drum shot for the first bit of the song. It was barely noticeable before any of the mods, but after the latest mod it becomes much, much more apparent. It would be interesting to know what the recording engineer was going for when they recorded it.
Anyway, to sum it up this latest mod, I feel has probably had as much or perhaps a little more impact on the sound of the t60 as the sand box mod. It is addicting to listen to, wondering what new I will hear out of my often played albums. It is truly stunning and anyone that has a t60 or the like should really do all of Pio1980's simple mods.
My only question, as I have never owned or heard any high end tt's, is what one would have to spend to get this much out of an lp? I can't imagine it getting any better.
Dave
First I tried to listen to a variety of styles of music. From my Columbia 6 eye mono Brubeck plays Brubeck to Several live recorded Rock albums. I also thru in some Classical and a little Elton John greatest hits to round things out.
In every case, someone in the listening group made a comment about how they felt like the stage was around them or they were in the middle of the concert. On the live recordings it seemed like the musicians were playing out in the middle of the room. We noticed a much more defined and life like rhythm section. On Elton John's Rocket Man it was almost distracting. The drummer, I think, was adding a side of the snare drum shot for the first bit of the song. It was barely noticeable before any of the mods, but after the latest mod it becomes much, much more apparent. It would be interesting to know what the recording engineer was going for when they recorded it.
Anyway, to sum it up this latest mod, I feel has probably had as much or perhaps a little more impact on the sound of the t60 as the sand box mod. It is addicting to listen to, wondering what new I will hear out of my often played albums. It is truly stunning and anyone that has a t60 or the like should really do all of Pio1980's simple mods.
My only question, as I have never owned or heard any high end tt's, is what one would have to spend to get this much out of an lp? I can't imagine it getting any better.
Dave
Gravelyguy
Active Member
Over the last couple of days we have had some pretty significant rain, so I have been forced to listen to listen to WAY more albums than I wanted to! Anyway, this latest mod has taken this tt to the next level and then some. Everything I have listened to has more depth and resolution. It absolutely amazes me how much better the t60 is performing. There have been several jaw dropping moments when it has felt like the musicians were playing and coming to you. The Cars Heartbeat City felt like a 3 D movie. Wild stuff!
Pio1980
AK Member
"My only question, as I have never owned or heard any high end tt's, is what one would have to spend to get this much out of an LP? I can't imagine it getting any better."
That has occured to me many times during the project, I suppose we need someone that has one of these and a Linn, VPI, or SOTA or other well-known TOTL Audiophile player to tell us.
Thnx for the updates, glad to know it isn't just MY imagination or wishful thinking on my part. BTW forgot to ask, what cart are you using and are you using it dust cover off or on & damped? If tried both ways what did you hear?
That has occured to me many times during the project, I suppose we need someone that has one of these and a Linn, VPI, or SOTA or other well-known TOTL Audiophile player to tell us.
Thnx for the updates, glad to know it isn't just MY imagination or wishful thinking on my part. BTW forgot to ask, what cart are you using and are you using it dust cover off or on & damped? If tried both ways what did you hear?
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Gravelyguy
Active Member
Pio, I am using a Shure 91 Ed with original stylus on my tt. I have been listening with the cover down. My listening lounge doubles as the family room so I seldom crank it to 11. So I did not notice much difference between up or down. My fuse holder sand box just fits under the dust cover.
Dave
Dave
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Pio1980
AK Member
After spending some time with the Meitner spacer in "platterless" mode I'm going with my initial unposted impression that it's a mixed bag of enhanced clarity and euphonic spacial effect.
To wit, I believe while it does indeed deal effectively with the troublesome interaction of the record's reactive vibration and the mat and platter reflection/transmission/re-reflection of the vibration back thru the record to the stylus to reduce the resultant smearing/blurring that occurs more-or-less with most all TTs, it also seems to introduce a consistent coloration due to wave vibration travelling around the disc undamped by a mat and entering the stylus with a consistent delay factor audible as a 'reverb' spacial enhancement separate from the spacial information in the source media.
I love the cleanliness of the resultant micro-detailing but find the coloration, however beguiling, "dishonest" compared to the normal config of the record weighted onto the stock mat. The OEM mat and weight are actually pretty good at clean detail compared to some other approaches and I don't really recommend fooling with the H-K's OEM mat beyond trying the Meitner spacer with that mat in place.
YMMV due to preferences.
To wit, I believe while it does indeed deal effectively with the troublesome interaction of the record's reactive vibration and the mat and platter reflection/transmission/re-reflection of the vibration back thru the record to the stylus to reduce the resultant smearing/blurring that occurs more-or-less with most all TTs, it also seems to introduce a consistent coloration due to wave vibration travelling around the disc undamped by a mat and entering the stylus with a consistent delay factor audible as a 'reverb' spacial enhancement separate from the spacial information in the source media.
I love the cleanliness of the resultant micro-detailing but find the coloration, however beguiling, "dishonest" compared to the normal config of the record weighted onto the stock mat. The OEM mat and weight are actually pretty good at clean detail compared to some other approaches and I don't really recommend fooling with the H-K's OEM mat beyond trying the Meitner spacer with that mat in place.
YMMV due to preferences.
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Pio1980
AK Member
I haven't mentioned an additional mod in this thread because of it's relatively minor effect, an eddy current belt loading arrangement to pre-load belt tension over stylus drag for smoother regulation. It seems to give a bit more consistent speed, like my quartz-locked DD tables.
The other thing I have yet to do, to move my primary 'A' system TT (Denon DP-55K/Mod'ed Souther SLA-3/ O'fon MC-3) into the experimental system to parity-check the H-K.
The other thing I have yet to do, to move my primary 'A' system TT (Denon DP-55K/Mod'ed Souther SLA-3/ O'fon MC-3) into the experimental system to parity-check the H-K.
Gravelyguy
Active Member
Pio1980, it has been a while since I checked in on this thread. I had not noticed post 113 that you made. I know that my ears are not what they once were. The only time that I have observed the reverb affect is when I have the volume way up there close to "11". At my normal family room levels I can not detect it. Although like I said, my ears are not what they once were.
I wonder if tt placement in relation to the speakers has any impact? Anyway, I have reopened several friend's eyes to how good an album can sound.
I would be interested in hearing more about the belt loading mod.
Dave
I wonder if tt placement in relation to the speakers has any impact? Anyway, I have reopened several friend's eyes to how good an album can sound.
I would be interested in hearing more about the belt loading mod.
Dave
Pio1980
AK Member
The eddy current loading device is a controlled dynamic drag brake arrangement consisting of a magnet plug taken from a defunct shaker flashlight and placed on the outer fender washer on the substructure counterweight adjacent to the outside of the belt pulley rim of the platter. I experimented with several permutations and this seemed the most effective with the least loading and also the least intrusive as well as being part of the damped suspended portion.
If I thought I might have had an impression of modulation drag induced pitch pulling, I don't now after several weeks of use with the device.
FWIW, this is still by far the best sounding TT I've used in this system regardless of the cart.
If I thought I might have had an impression of modulation drag induced pitch pulling, I don't now after several weeks of use with the device.
FWIW, this is still by far the best sounding TT I've used in this system regardless of the cart.
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Pio1980
AK Member
One H-K owner has commented on the original mat giving a "dark" cast to playback sonix, and in comparison to my recently moved and revived 'standard' TT it does sound considerably darker and closed-in (with a Grado 8MZ /'P'-mount) compared to the DL-110 in the mod'ed Souther SLA-3 on the Denon DP-55K TT. Granted they are very different playback systems but they should IMO sound differently excellent if they are working to reasonable expectations at least. I'm swapping mats for a Technics mat from a SL-Q200 to give it a listen as this responds the best to my ear on the H-K platter to a basic resonance test compared to the stocker OEM and felt options thus far.
I've tried an original H/K mat and an old Canadian-made "Music Mat" on my T-60. The "Music Mat" seemed superior to my ears.
Pio1980
AK Member
I tried various mats without a satisfactory result, it seems the 'P'-mount Grado/8MZ stylus is just not a good choice for this TT. Perhaps a hard-mounted standard Grado body on a spacer plate might work better but I haven't tried that, yet. Putting back the Digi 200 E 'P'-mount restored the 'magic' this TT can offer, and then some mat-swapping yielded interesting results as sampling Fleetwood Mac "RUMOURS" showed. The stock mat sounded fine as did the Technics mat, the felt and felt-cork mats didn't sound promising with static resonance testing and so didn't get a try. The best & cleanest sounding result came with an oddball Sony 'Planetary' type soft mat like this;
I do not have the Sony TT for this mat as it came with my freebie PS-X70, now reunited with the OEM mat.
I do not have the Sony TT for this mat as it came with my freebie PS-X70, now reunited with the OEM mat.
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That mat is from a PS-4300. I have one of those tables sitting here.