ADC XLM or M91ED for Thorens TD 125 MKII

[tfri513]

Folks, I'm still relatively new to vinyl, but found a Thorens TD125 MKII which I've been enjoying for a few months now. This TT had an 'ADC XLM' on it. (It's the original ADC XLM, not a MKII or newer). The TT with the ADC cart sounded fine to me, but I sent it in to be serviced, and the tech said the ADC cart wasn't sounding right. So he put on a used Shure M91ED. I have no idea what stylus. But it sounds pretty good. I didn't run it for long with the ADC XLM, but I think it sounded smoother, but maybe a little muddy. The stylus looked rough. After reading up more on the ADC XLM, including some excellent advice from my previous post here, I am still intrigued by this ADC XLM and feel like it should be back on this TT. Because it is impossible to find an original stylus, I ordered a JICO replacement, which just arrived. It's specifically for the XLM. Now I'm wondering what to do.

This TD 125 has a TP16 tone arm, I think MKII. I'm not going to attempt to change and set up a new cart. I'll send it in to a tech, which is kind of a pain. So it's kind of a big decision now. Should I keep the M91ED on there? Or should I reunite the ADC XLM with it's old friend. Is this even the right cart, compliance-wise for the TP16 MKII tone arm?

 

[GuyK]

I'm not familiar with the ADC, but I wouldn't keep the M91. This tt is far more capable than that cartridge is.

 

[wualta]

With the XLM going on 45 years old, this becomes a tougher question than it would be if the cartridges were new. Back then, ideally, you wouldn't've wanted to put the XLM in anything more massive than an Infinity Black Widow or SME Series III, had they existed. However, the decades have very likely stiffened the supersoft rubber suspension block, at which point your XLM would have a fighting chance of being okay in your Thorens arm, which I'm guessing is not a featherweight.

However, if this supposition is wrong, the bass will be whompy and dull, your woofers will flutter even when there's no bass on the record.... along with other danger signs of a too-compliant stylus being bounced over the record by a tonearm that expected to see something stiffer, for example the inability to stay composed over moderate warps. But you say it mostly sounds really good-- that's a good sign, though not a guarantee that the cartridge is operating under conditions it would consider ideal. Only you can decide if it's good enough. If you watch for the danger signs of a mismatch and they don't show up, and the sound continues good... I say carry on with the XLM.

 

[tfri513]

I'm not familiar with the ADC, but I wouldn't keep the M91. This tt is far more capable than that cartridge is.

Thanks for that advice guys. Wualta, your description of a 'whompy' bass is similar to the description the 77 yr old tech gave me, and the reason he put the M91ED on there without asking… He was a Thorens tech way back in the day.

At some stage I'd like to upgrade my tone arm, which I read is not well liked. Maybe then I'll experiment with the ADC XLM. I'm still intrigued by it, because I've read it can sound fantastic. And I just like it when old stuff blows away new stuff. I drive a 20 yr old BMW 540.

I'm not ready to spend $750 on an SME 3009 tone arm yet. But the M91ED seems to be a low to mid-budget cartridge. Is there something that would work well with this TP16 tone arm up to about $400? Would it offer an appreciable improvement over this Shure cartridge? I think I have a TP16 MKII, which is about 8 grams. (I'm reading the first generation TP16 that was the heavy one, weighing in at 16 grams).

 

[jmchrislip]

Let your ears decide.

 

[wualta]

Another proposition: damp the arm. I mean damp the arm's motion, not vibratory modes in the arm itself. This can make a huge difference when the arm is heavy and the cartridge is ultracompliant. 8g actually sounds pretty good, assuming the arm bearings are top notch, but damping will clean up the bass. Could be DIY, could have your your tech do it. He'll know how not to overdamp, which is as bad as not damping at all.
Once the arm-cartridge infrasonic resonance is damped, matching becomes much less important and your life gets that much less fussy. Just a thought.

 

[tfri513]

Wualta, thanks for that advice. Sounds like a good option.

 

[GuyK]

Thanks for that advice guys. Wualta, your description of a 'whompy' bass is similar to the description the 77 yr old tech gave me, and the reason he put the M91ED on there without asking… He was a Thorens tech way back in the day.

At some stage I'd like to upgrade my tone arm, which I read is not well liked. Maybe then I'll experiment with the ADC XLM. I'm still intrigued by it, because I've read it can sound fantastic. And I just like it when old stuff blows away new stuff. I drive a 20 yr old BMW 540.

I'm not ready to spend $750 on an SME 3009 tone arm yet. But the M91ED seems to be a low to mid-budget cartridge. Is there something that would work well with this TP16 tone arm up to about $400? Would it offer an appreciable improvement over this Shure cartridge? I think I have a TP16 MKII, which is about 8 grams. (I'm reading the first generation TP16 that was the heavy one, weighing in at 16 grams).

Some people think they are too bright, but I have an AT440mla (now superseded by the AT440mlb) on my TD160, which also has a TP16, and it sounds pretty good. Far better (to me) than the M91ed that was on my Dual 1219, even after installing a new stylus. And I expect it would sound better yet on a better arm. There is a host of possibilities for other cartridges. If memory serves me, there are several Denon, several Ortofon, several Grados, and a few others that should be a step up from the M91 and still work on the TP16. I think the TP-16 is an ok arm, but not not a great one, and I'd like to replace mine with something better too, but it's not in the budget here, either.

The idea of damping the arm is intriguing also.

 

[tfri513]

Thanks, I will look into an AT440mla. And yes, everyone seems to think an SME 3009 tone arm is the perfect match for the TD125. But if you look on Vinyl Nirvana, Dave there is putting the latest SME tone arms on and they still have vintage look. And they're $1500 or so. Yikes. So I'll just be looking into damping for now… But I would really like to try the ADC cart I have pictured above one day. Vinyl Engine lists it as,
"There are probably only three or four phono cartridges that legitimately rank in the pantheon of all time super cartridges. Of these, the ADC XLM must be included, as many people consider it something of a reference standard."
So naturally I gotta know! But it will take a new tone arm one day to find out…
Thanks for the advice gents. And yes, the M91ED does sound a little bright maybe, but I'm too new to this to make comparisons.

 

[TT-newbie]

I have both cartridges. I like M91ED on my Empire 698 which sounds really good. I have also got a original ADC XLM, which has flat pins. The problem with ADC XLM is very difficult to find a stylus. I have tried Jico replacement stylus that didn't fit to the body, apparently only for XLM MKII. Last year, I found a seller at Amazon who sells stylus for XLM original. I used it on my Thorens TD 125MKII with SME 3009 improved. It has different sound characteristics. It is very sensitive to VTA and VTF, when set properly, it produces a more dynamic range, a bit brighter compared to DL-103R and Grado Reference Platinum that I used. It might not be as detailed as Denon, but it is more musical in my opinion, definitely a keeper. I think it will fit your TP16MKII just fine as it has low an effective mass, 8 g even lower that SME3009's 9 g. I have another TD 125MKII with TP16MKII, I will someday try ADC XLM on it just to compare.

 

[tfri513]

TT newbie, that is very interesting. Actually (before my tech guy replaced my ADC XLM with my current M91ED), I emailed Jico for advice on what stylus to order, because I got a lot of confusing info online. I didn't hear back, so I took a chance and ordered one off the Jico site (part no.e000229). It fits on my original ADC XLM cart just fine. Obviously I haven't heard it perform yet. THEN I got a reply from Jico. Here's what they said:
"I recommend our RZL [e000231] Shibata tipped stylus. It is intended for the ADC SUPER/XLM2 cartridge, but is compatible with the XLM as well.
Sincerely,
Seth Kolon / JICO"
Obviously this is not the stylus I ordered. Maybe they have fixed the problem with the stylus you ordered. It was about $50 and just says "For ADC XLM".
I am now unsure whether I actually have a TP16 MKII. It appears to match pictures of the MKII, but it's hard to tell. I just assumed it was because it was on my TD 125 "MKII", and somebody had (I suspect 40 years ago) installed this ADC XLM on it, which would have been a mis-match on the original TP16, which was 16+ grams.

 

[TT-newbie]

The Jico stylus I got could not fit snugly on ADC body. Does your ADC XLM body have those weird looking flat pins? Yes, it was about $50 when I bought. I don't know whether they send me the wrong stylus. I actually gave the stylus to my friend who has a ADC XLM MKII which works perfectly.

I think it can easily tell a TP16MKII from TP16. MKII has a light weighted clamp style cartridge shell like this.

If you have TP16, it will be definitely not for ADC XLM as I only track it at 0.8g.

 

[ARJohn]

Old post but I have the XLM MKii improved and came across some NOS XLM MK III stylus a year ago , they were rather pricey but they sound pretty fine . the guy I got them from was selling on A-gon and was a bit of an expert on these ADC carts . He might still have some ?

 

[wualta]

tfri513: Did you ever try the Jico e000229 in your Mk I XLM body?

About Seth's recommendation, purely for information: you have an "XLM Mk I" body (ADC never called it that, but in retrospect that's the logical name for it), and Seth appears to be recommending a Mk II, the RZL.

Generally, this is perfectly fine-- the I and II bodies are different, but no big thing. The original RZL is a wonderful stylus if used properly, but it would be brighter than a "normal" Mk II would sound in your Mk I body-- the original RZL was anything but normal, and ADC never made anything like it ever again. I hope someone who's tried Jico's RZL, which I hope has eliminated the brightness problem when used in the Mk I body, comes along with their impressions of the overall sound.

Meanwhile, I hope you like your e000229 and will tell us about it soon.

 

[VintageFr]

FYI, Seth recommended the e000229 for what he believes to be an ADC XLM, which according to a second source, might be a 1st gen XLM cart (but I found some contradicting info to this that states that the silver body indicates that the stylus that would have come with this cart is a QLM, although the cart itself would be identical to the XLM). The 'net can be full of info and its often hard to decipher all of it.

Mine has "normal" round pins. Perhaps the Jico e000229 only fits the XLM with round pins and the flat pinned XLM (like TT-Newbie has) is slightly different?
I asked about the other "improved" stylus Jico has and this is what Seth responded:

The RSZ Improved [e000227] is the equivalent of the XLM, the only difference being the stylus guard.

DSCF6848

• VintageFr
• Mar 28, 2016

ADC XLM 1st Gen ?
260mh @ 1khz
479Ω @ 120hz

DSCF6847

• VintageFr
• Mar 28, 2016

ADC XLM 1st Gen ?
260mh @ 1khz
479Ω @ 120hz

I just want to make sure that I get something that is the best quality for this cart... and something that will fit as I can't afford to get something that is not compatible.