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Advice on Affordable Mid-Fi System for Neighborhood Bar

BRye86

BRye86

New Member
Hey Folks!

Long time listener, first time caller..

I am looking to open a small, neighborhood cocktail bar with interest in vinyl and killer sound. This will be far from the Japanese listening dens and much more blue collar. I'm not looking for the perfect hi-fi imaging, but when people come in, I want them to say "wow, it sounds ****ing awesome in here". We are on a shoe string budget as it is and it's not 100% the bars entire identity to be a vinyl listening lounge, but an added bonus to make the trek to this neighborhood (which has a giant live music identity).

So, having that said, I want to buy used and anything value, "in the know" type brands I should look out for. For me, I'm a huge fan of Evan Williams Bourbon. Having tried everything high to low end, I've made my assessment that it is best bang for your buck and is essentially Elijah Craig Jr... That's in a nutshell what I'm hoping to translate for some advice. I want to build a dusty hot rod of a system that will function well in a small bar and earn a little street cred in the process for some hopeful vinyl enthusiasts that grace our stools.

I'm an enthusiast myself, but I'm only a few years in to my favorite addiction. I'm constantly scanning CL and Marketplace looking for deals on decent 3-way speakers and power amps, but I've come to realize it might be better to narrow down my searches so I don't go crazy.

I'm sure you all need background:
Room size: Approx 25' Width, 15' Deep - 10' ceilings and wood panelling along the walls

Music style will be somewhat eclectic, some days classic rock, some days trip hop, soul & funk.

I would like to go separates, but could be convinced otherwise. Would like to mount some vintage floor standing (like Klipsch Heresy sized) speakers and position accordingly.

My budget for the system (without TT's) is about $1500.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

-B
 
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Tell us what kind of sound they desire first. I'm an OLD Weller fan my self. The oldest son is a Gentlemen Jack Black label fan. I gave up when Glenlevet started playing around with their flavors.
 
25x15 is about the same size as my living room and the 50 watt per channel plays very loud with volume half way up, but if you have 30 or 40 people standing around you may want something in the 60 to 100 wpc range. A nice looking restored vintage unit would be pretty to look and a nice conversation piece for patrons. There are many options from Sansui, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo and Kenwood. For a room that size I would probably go with 2 pair of larger bookshelf speakers to disperse the sound more evenly.


On a side note for twiiiii, I ran across a bottle of old unused Glenlivet from 1974 recently. I can confirm their formula has definitely changed, that old bottle will put to shame most of the scotch being sold today and absolutely embarrasses the current Glenlivet I compared it to. Even the current Jim Beam Black is a shell of its former glorious self and those two are not the only ones trying to live on former reputations, I guess some cant tell the diff between a 6 years of aging and 8 years of aging but I definitely noticed when Beam Black changed.
 
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For additional context,
twiiii said:
Tell us what kind of sound they desire first. I'm an OLD Weller fan my self. The oldest son is a Gentlemen Jack Black label fan. I gave up when Glenlevet started playing around with their flavors.
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Weller used the be bourbon's best kept secret. Getting more and more difficult to find, but they are special indeed and a superb value!

To answer your question, I haven't had an incredibly diverse sampling, but I think I lean more British in sound (rich, warm). I grew up with my dad's 70's pioneer receiver and always loved the sound. I started my own home system with an Audiolab Integrated with some 80's B&W towers until I bought and reformed a pair of AR2ax's that blew them out of the water.

I like the sound of JBL L100's with a McIntosh (most bars use that combo), I like KLH, Acoustic Research, KEF. I like the idea of Klipsch, but some have sounded a little flat for me (I know that's the point). I was thinking some Wharfedale w-60's, have heard good things about vintage Bozaks and old KLH and Advent. I'd like the speakers to be more of that vintage square shape so I can build platforms for them. Putting them on the back bar won't be center to the room and I don't want some a-hole poking a tweeter.
 
I would think the layout of the joint would dictate what's possible and likely to succeed. Flying speakers overhead is likely to distribute sound more evenly to more people.Two stereo pairs at opposite ends on the short walls would seem a good first experiment, maybe up in the corners to help with the bass. Floorstanding would be better in a cleared floor area, without people right in front of them. BTW, @twiiii has lots of experience at this!
 
petes'picks said:
25x15 is about the same size as my living room and the 50 watt per channel plays very loud with volume half way up, but if you have 30 or 40 people standing around you may want something in the 60 to 100 wpc range. A nice looking restored vintage unit would be pretty to look and a nice conversation piece for patrons. There are many options from Sansui, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo and Kenwood. For a room that size I would probably go with 2 pair of larger bookshelf speakers to disperse the sound more evenly.


On a side note for twiiiii, I ran across a bottle of old unused Glenlivet from 1974 recently. I can confirm their formula has definitely changed, that old bottle will put to shame most of the scotch being sold today and absolutely embarrasses the current Glenlivet I compared it to. Even the current Jim Beam Black is a shell of its former glorious self and those two are not the only ones trying to live on former reputations.
Click to expand...

Glenlivit is certainly different these days. I do however enjoy the Nadurra and it's cask strength, so more whisky for the dollar!

I agree with the wattage you quoted. I'd like it to have no trouble driving speakers and a little extra if we are having a wild one. I'm also concerned vinyl being a little more quiet of a signal opposed to streaming.
 
50 different people will give you 50 different answers, but here's a couple products I actually use myself.

For a source, (especially in a commercial setting), it's hard to beat the Tascam CD-400u. It gives you AM/FM, CD, Bluetooth, thumbdrive, memory card and AUX in.

For an amp, one of the AudioSource units. Works good, sounds good.

https://tascam.com/us/product/cd-400u/top

https://audiosource.net/shop/amp100vs/

P.S. Evan Williams makes the best dang eggnog ever.
 
Kick it up a notch and try a Woodford double oaked. Very smooth and nice vanilla notes. Then consider some restored AR2ax speakers which won't break the bank. They're not the AR3 or 3a but still a similar sound sig. Typical east coast sound. Very smooth and great bass. Not a big speaker and at 8 ohms you could run 2 pair with a moderate powered receiver or integrated amp (no need for a receiver unless you like the lighted dial). Pioneer, Kenwood integrated at 50-75 wpc. Turntable is up to you. Maybe a new one in the $500 range with cart. With one pair of restored speakers you'd be around your target. You'd have a very warm sounding bar and disco/funk/R&B would thump.

I have a pair of AR2ax in my 3 car garage with a 50wpc receiver. It can get pretty loud (+90db) but it diffuses at the back end of the 22x35 open ceiling garage.
 
Woodford Double Oaked is great, so is the Reserve.

Quick hint for those on the lookout of inexpensive but very good Bourbon -- check out the brands on the bottom shelf. Many are made to order by Heaven Hill (so are Evan Williams and Elija Craig). And never overlook Very Old Barton -- it used to be all 8 years old or older, but they had to mix in some 6 year a few years back to keep up with demand and had to take the 8 year label off. Very middle of the road, but very good and very inexpensive!

As for your sound equpiment: I have no recommendations for speakers, what I would use is out of your price range. For an amp I'd go either 80s/90s separates or a big integrated from that era. My favorites are Kenwood, anything in the 100 watt/channel range. Good solid wall mounted shelf for the turntable, which should be a heavy one. Reason I suggest late 80s is that designs were very mature by then, mostly still discrete components and usually not much in the way of microprocessors so they can be fixed easily, lots of power, well built, and big enough to do what you want.

As far as exact models go -- Kenwood KA-88, KA-87, KA-127, KA-128. all 100 W plus. For separates Kenwood Basic C1 and M1 amp, or something similar. If you want remote control the later ones will work, just make sure the amps don't use the TA output modules. Those work great and sound wonderful, but are NOT available except as used pulls, and not always then either, last thing you want in a commercial setup! There is very little difference electronically between all of these, the circuits are almost identical except for the larger ones which have dual output rails at lower and higher voltage. The ideal amp would probably be a KA-880D (not the SD!) or KA-990D or KA-1100D, but those aren't common and will take a big bite out of your budget.
 
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I love Woodford, but just to mix with coke or savor lightly I prefer Weller. Woodford is for a rare occasion or serious celebration in my book. A toast to a long lost friend or recent relative passing. I think I'll have a Weller straight up and toast Harry Belafonte tonight. I must have close to a dozen of his LP's. But if I play them tonight it will make me sad and thats the last thing we want to do. We want to celebrate his life with a cheer!
 
4 JBL L100's in the corners up above but not quite at the cieling powered by a pair of Adcom GFA-555's and an as yet to be determined preamp....maybe an old tube Dynaco or Scott.

Warm tube goodness backed up by some serious SS muscle....shop smart and you shouldnt go tooo far over budget.

But hey, you're opening a bar, what hasnt already gone over budget !!

Where are you located ??
 
Do you have a preference of tubes vs solid state? Will the music be played at background levels or at louder levels? Technical listening or lots of background noise/conversation? Do you want a system that is visually appealing or does it matter? I recently sold a pair of EV Marquis speakers that were in great shape to folks opening a brew pub. I believe that they planned to power the speakers with a Fisher receiver (500 or 800). While good sonics were important, they were also after a particular design aesthetic. You have lots of options, some pro gear might even be good for your application.
 
I don't really have any insight as far as gear, other than to say that some kind of setup with dual stereo speakers at opposite ends of the room is probably going to be a good bet. With just one set of speakers you run the risk of it being too loud in one part of the room and not loud enough in the other...

I'll have to check out that Evan Williams stuff as I'm always looking for good whisky for cheap (or at least relatively cheap). The Elijah Craig comparison is intriguing as I've definitely enjoyed that stuff...
 
What I would do: Get a cheap receiver with a remote and 4 matching anything bookshelf speakers on CL or eBay. You might need a sub or two depending on the speakers and config. In a bar you are going to have a lot of ambient noise and it will be hard to hear the virtues of any hifi. Most receivers will easily fill a room that size. Speakers should go up near the ceiling. No need to toe in I think so shelf brackets will probably do it.

Please report back with the actuals and impressions of the sound when you decide.
 
It’s probably just me, but whatever Sansui I put through my KLH 23s I always think they would sound great in a bar or cocktail lounge. Also, they’re not that expensive, are very simple, and they look so classy.

And everything sounds good coming through them. Big 12in woofers and tweeters that have a metal mesh over them. Just my 2 cents.
 
It's unrealistic to expect to purchase $1500 of vintage gear on the used market and have a system suitable for commercial use from a reliability standpoint. In addition, I would steer clear of any amplifier which didn't have some form of speaker protection so that an over zealous operator doesn't cause a fire. Receivers, integrated amps - no bueno; part of it goes down and you've got no music. Speakers with a single tweeter (especially a dome) would also be no bueno due to reliability concerns - feedback, oscillations, etc and they're vaporized. This is why Bose 901s or 802s were so widely used in such installations - no tweeters to blow.

Some kind of anti (or soft) clipping circuitry would be mandatory in such an environment - what happens when the drunk gets behind the bar and to the volume control? Or when the young help wants to hear Tupac at full volume with the loudness on and the bass at 10?

What you want is great sound, reliability, and ease of use. In a professional setting that won't likely come cheap and it will require excellent setup on the front end to prevent accidental equipment damage by operator error, even at low to medium volumes.
 
There is a cool little bar/venue in my town that has a vinyl rig and they spin records in the bar area. They have a Technics SL-7 turntable and some powered speakers tucked behind the bar and the people working control the setup.

I was talking to the owner about it and he was happy with the turntable because it plays everything they throw at it without skipping from the foot traffic. It sounds pretty good at a background volume level.

It seems to be a pretty ideal setup to me, decent sound, reliable, and easy for the employees to use.

Here's a bad pic

20221210_221903.jpg

Link to turntable
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-7.shtml
 
It's good to take these into account, but finding reasons why something won't work is an odd quirk of our members here. I see no insurmountable problems and I've seen a setup like you describe in multiple venues.
 
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