Advice on Affordable Mid-Fi System for Neighborhood Bar

[damacman]

Many Adcom and hafler power amps do not have any form of speaker protection. Basically what that means is that should something give way in the amplifier (typically from age), very high DC Voltage can be sent to the speakers. This causes very loud buzzing, followed by smoke, and sometimes even fire. It all happens very quickly.

If you elect such an amplifier then at the very least use inline fuses between it and the speakers. The NAD amplifiers would be a better choice - especially those with the soft clipping feature.

 

[Bill S]

How many times do you want to hear your patrons yelling to change the album every 20 minutes or so and your bartenders are busy

One additional reason I mostly stream these days. I rarely can get into a whole album side by one artist these days. Music has to fit the mood and many albums have a track or two that fits and the others, meh. I know that is sacrilege to vinyl aficionados but unless I'm stoned I don't need side one of Close To The Edge. I like to mix things up and vinyl isn't conducive to that. I know that's the bar theme but it's not my thing.

 

[devnull]

Just get one set of efficient speakers that can adequately fill your space with the sound you want at any volume level. I don't understand why any bar owner would want an overly complicated sound system for a small venue like that. The right music is the key in a bar atmosphere, not all the pretty lights of a vintage system. If it were mine, the system wouldn't even be displayed, especially behind a busy bar where it can be easily damaged. It would be as simple as possible. The overall sound quality will never be optimized in that space unless you plan on spending a lot of money on acoustical treatments. As I said before, vinyl would be a no-no. How many times do you want to hear your patrons yelling to change the album every 20 minutes or so and your bartenders are busy? How many qualified people will you have that will properly handle and clean your vinyl, and operate the system? Hiring a full time DJ will negatively affect your bottom line. Keep the system simple, offer a variety of music genres that appeal to the majority of the bar's patrons, and be able to cue up requested tracks or entire playlists with a few clicks on a laptop or tablet. Have a night or two with a live acoustical performance by a local talent. That would reinforce your place's reputation as an intimate music-oriented establishment.

I'm somewhat in agreement. If a so called 'mid-fi' system is the focal point of the bar, I'm not going to be particularly interested in it. While I don't frequent bars often now, when I do, it's to socialize.

I've watched some of the Bar Rescue shows lately. It's all scripted and frankly just set up for the Jerry Springer kind of confrontation experience, but there is some interesting stuff in there. I recall Jon Taffer mentioning something about how people reduce the frequency of how often they go to the bar once they get to their mid-30s. Family, kids and any number of other factors are no doubt involved. I violated that rule, and made it another ten years or so. Maybe the younger crowd will get into a system such as what is being discussed here, dunno.

 

[stevo137]

Hello All, I want to pitch in a bit again and say I like the conversations regarding using a nice vintage receiver, I have my share of separates but I still listen to my receivers with my TT's, Chicago radio stations and such. For Spotify I just use a Dragonfly dac into aux, its easy and sounds very good. If you really think that you need more power I really enjoy my good ole' Scott 370R, that may also be a good option, no need for an additional amp. I find that the my Pioneer seems to be best at pulling in the FM.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

Can you tell this is a vintage gear club?

commercial sound gear is fairly inexpensive
A powerful Crown amp and some Peavey PA speakers can be had easily. That gives the basic sound platform. Feed it good signal and it just makes it sound bigger.

people don’t go to bars to listen to high SQ music, they go to socialize. So you really want excellent music at moderate levels unless you’re after a Disco scene or a Rave.

I deal with a lot of vintage and some commercial gear. I would set up some large PA/sound reinforcement speakers, a high power commercial amp and feed it with a good vintage source. Since I have a who’s who of vintage, I could try many things. I’d probably start with something like an APT preamp.

I don’t know if I would go vinyl.
A high end CD player would temp me.
A music steamer with a few station options may do it.

I did a little bar tending once.
It was a quite little bar and I had plenty to-do without fussing with vinyl and a turntable.

What you know. He wants a neighborhood Japanese style vinyl bar. Music in these is not Crown Class D PA system nor is it Peavey. It's not Spotify, it's not Sirius/XM. It's not 10 TV screens, or nightclub or a rave party.

It involves excellent quality audio equipment, amplifier or receiver, vinyl, turntables, and tonearms. Maybe a reel to reel deck, Excellent loudspeakers. Excellent liquor, food and/or cigars. Foreground music of high quality, excellent ambiance, and experience which is low key, not in your face. The opposite of what you think is needed.

This is a small venue of high quality. Japanese style. He won't have 1-3,000 people in one bar. It's the kind of place I'd be glad to visit, even if all I drank was soft drinks and good food, and the music.

I'd try to work out an arrangement with a local record shop or even two good shops, let them supply rotating music, have it for sale (so you're selling records) to help with copyright issues. A consignment agreement where you get a small cut. Have the inventory insured. Have a little display of quality used records (and even new vinyl). A good co-op arrangement would benefit you and them, businesslike.

 

[blhagstrom]

I wouldn’t mess around. Wife works at a retirement home and they got a letter over their “movie room.” Senior homes used to be exempt but then these copyright owners changed their minds awhile back. Ended up just buying a blanket license so there wouldn’t be legal trouble. It’s all about money.

I have got to wonder how to get a job as a copyright enforcement officer?

I work in software and recently went through a copyright thing at work. Big company, FDA compliant level. Have a legal department. Copyright is a very very very strange thing. Mostly BS until money gets involved and blood sucking lawyers smell a dime.

There are so many BS feel-good laws that never get enforced it’s ridiculous.

Being illegal or doing illegal only matters if there is an enforcement officer who cares around. Where I live, unless it’s an active shooter, you are on your own.

There are like 70000 fatalities on US highways every year. I only see people NOT speeding when there is a serious cop around (usually there due to drivers getting so wild, someone complained). Now I will allow that not all fatalities are speed related. Since 1/2 of people are below average, stupid probably kills half, though stupid may be why people speed. Tough call.

What you know. He wants a neighborhood Japanese style vinyl bar. Music in these is not Crown Class D PA system nor is it Peavey. It's not Spotify, it's not Sirius/XM. It's not 10 TV screens, or nightclub or a rave party.

It involves excellent quality audio equipment, amplifier or receiver, vinyl, turntables, and tonearms. Maybe a reel to reel deck, Excellent loudspeakers. Excellent liquor, food and/or cigars. Foreground music of high quality, excellent ambiance, and experience which is low key, not in your face. The opposite of what you think is needed.

This is a small venue of high quality. Japanese style. He won't have 1-3,000 people in one bar. It's the kind of place I'd be glad to visit, even if all I drank was soft drinks and good food, and the music.

I'd try to work out an arrangement with a local record shop or even two good shops, let them supply rotating music, have it for sale (so you're selling records) to help with copyright issues. A consignment agreement where you get a small cut. Have the inventory insured. Have a little display of quality used records (and even new vinyl). A good co-op arrangement would benefit you and them, businesslike.

Totally failed to make my point.

All the source gear (Turntable in this case) phono pre-amp, pre-amp can be nice high quality vintage. I was pointing out that trying to fill a larger area with many listening locations with good sound from vintage amplifiers and speakers may be a challenge and expensive.

I was not talking concert level music drowning out any chance of gentle conversation.

I was trying to point out that commercial power amps and speakers are relatively inexpensive and able to distribute good sound.

I see locating home speakers properly in a bar/lounge situation as a problem. Floor space should be used to maximize the actual business.

However, dedicating part of the back bar as an audio showcase/DJ area is an idea. Similar to a home audio “wall” of stereo.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I have got to wonder how to get a job as a copyright enforcement officer?

I work in software and recently went through a copyright thing at work. Big company, FDA compliant level. Have a legal department. Copyright is a very very very strange thing. Mostly BS until money gets involved and blood sucking lawyers smell a dime.

There are so many BS feel-good laws that never get enforced it’s ridiculous.

Being illegal or doing illegal only matters if there is an enforcement officer who cares around. Where I live, unless it’s an active shooter, you are on your own.

There are like 70000 fatalities on US highways every year. I only see people NOT speeding when there is a serious cop around (usually there due to drivers getting so wild, someone complained). Now I will allow that not all fatalities are speed related. Since 1/2 of people are below average, stupid probably kills half, though stupid may be why people speed. Tough call.


Totally failed to make my point.

All the source gear (Turntable in this case) phono pre-amp, pre-amp can be nice high quality vintage. I was pointing out that trying to fill a larger area with many listening locations with good sound from vintage amplifiers and speakers may be a challenge and expensive.

I was not talking concert level music drowning out any chance of gentle conversation.

I was trying to point out that commercial power amps and speakers are relatively inexpensive and able to distribute good sound.

I see locating home speakers properly in a bar/lounge situation as a problem. Floor space should be used to maximize the actual business.

However, dedicating part of the back bar as an audio showcase/DJ area is an idea. Similar to a home audio “wall” of stereo.

The Commercial PA defeats the purpose totally. These units save for a very rare few, sound awful at lower volumes. I wish you could get one on loan, listen to it in an intimate environment and report back.

 

[BRye86]

What you know. He wants a neighborhood Japanese style vinyl bar. Music in these is not Crown Class D PA system nor is it Peavey. It's not Spotify, it's not Sirius/XM. It's not 10 TV screens, or nightclub or a rave party.

It involves excellent quality audio equipment, amplifier or receiver, vinyl, turntables, and tonearms. Maybe a reel to reel deck, Excellent loudspeakers. Excellent liquor, food and/or cigars. Foreground music of high quality, excellent ambiance, and experience which is low key, not in your face. The opposite of what you think is needed.

This is a small venue of high quality. Japanese style. He won't have 1-3,000 people in one bar. It's the kind of place I'd be glad to visit, even if all I drank was soft drinks and good food, and the music.

I'd try to work out an arrangement with a local record shop or even two good shops, let them supply rotating music, have it for sale (so you're selling records) to help with copyright issues. A consignment agreement where you get a small cut. Have the inventory insured. Have a little display of quality used records (and even new vinyl). A good co-op arrangement would benefit you and them, businesslike.

See, you get it..

We will be far from the legit kissa's you find in NYC or Tokyo, but I know folks out here are extremely into vinyl (now younger than ever) and having an alternative place that is music centric to have a drink that is different from the endless carbon copies of dive bars in the greater area will be a welcome addition. Cocktails and upscale bar food will be the complete draw and we aren't trying to compete with hi-fi bars. An old mentor of mine used to use the term "offhand excellence". It means do something unexpectedly great even though your entire venue's purpose is to serve outstanding cocktails. In his case, it was using a professional espresso machine to make the one person a week a world class espresso that wanted one and blowing their minds on the quality of the espresso that had no business being so good in a small cocktail bar.

 

[C Hart]

2 weeks in and lots of comments and interest: What's the decision status so far?

 

[BRye86]

To answer a few of concerns some raised about

2 weeks in and lots of comments and interest: What's the decision status so far?

On the audio equipment or the bar space?

Sent an offer and waiting to hear back next week, so TBD, but it will happen somewhere soon.

As for the equipment, I've compiled a wish list of a lot of mentioned in the thread and keeping an eye out on various marketplaces and platforms for them to fall into my net.

I'm looking for:
Integrated/receivers with pre-outs from Pioneer, Sansui, and Marantz.
Power from Adcom, NAD, or Hafler and honestly tied between he two re: speaker protection (I know the 555mk2 has it), but in the 100-200 watt range. There's a few B&K's locally, but have no prior knowledge on them and their quality, but are priced right and just enough power.
Speakers, probably looking to donate my personal set of AR2ax's. Also have some smaller AR's as well (that need love first) so I can spread the sound more evenly (great advice from the group). I think I want to snag an old pair of Wharfedale's to replace them in my home rig to pair with my Audiolab integrated. Also keeping an eye out for Advents and KLH's that are in good shape so I don't need to part with my AR's.

TT's, I have an AT120 at home collecting dust and going to snag another to run two with a mixer so we always have a fresh record ready to roll. Probably worthy of another thread, but wanted to go direct drive that still has good sound and able to take a little beating rather than going vintage on the tables as well. I'm certainly open to any cartridge advice that aren't too precious if a stylus is broken by a shaky bartender.

 

[BRye86]

I can't thank everyone enough for all the sound advice!!

Some suggestions validated my original thoughts and others made me consider alternatives. I originally wanted a vintage receiver or integrated and was hoping to get advised to run the pre outs to a slightly newer power section to drive the room. Never considered more than two speakers, but I have now changed my mind based on your advice. @C Hart had a good point about some deafening spots in the room and how uncomfortable it would be for certain patrons. I think we are best served running four speakers at a lower decibel rather than two pushed to the absolute limits.

I was planning to have the DAC available for those hectic nights where getting records queue'd is just too much and need to switch to one of our curated playlists until we catch up. I have seen many bars able to execute service while spinning vinyl behind the bar, some with only one TT! Goldline LA, DJ booth was wayyy down the bar and bartenders ran it until 8pm most nights, Estereo Chicago, only one TT, never a moment without music, same with Big Star Chicago.

I will keep on checking back to see if anyone has any other gems for me to consider and I will be sure to follow up with pictures of the system we end up with! Will send over location info as well and if anyone happens to be in our area and helped me out here, I got a whiskey for you!

 

[KentTeffeteller]

A Yamaha commerical power amplifier would be a good sounding unit if more power is needed, in your budget. Older Crown before Class D also great. A Macro-Tech is a good Crown.

 

[TomD62]

I can't thank everyone enough for all the sound advice!!

Some suggestions validated my original thoughts and others made me consider alternatives. I originally wanted a vintage receiver or integrated and was hoping to get advised to run the pre outs to a slightly newer power section to drive the room. Never considered more than two speakers, but I have now changed my mind based on your advice. @C Hart had a good point about some deafening spots in the room and how uncomfortable it would be for certain patrons. I think we are best served running four speakers at a lower decibel rather than two pushed to the absolute limits.

I was planning to have the DAC available for those hectic nights where getting records queue'd is just too much and need to switch to one of our curated playlists until we catch up. I have seen many bars able to execute service while spinning vinyl behind the bar, some with only one TT! Goldline LA, DJ booth was wayyy down the bar and bartenders ran it until 8pm most nights, Estereo Chicago, only one TT, never a moment without music, same with Big Star Chicago.

I will keep on checking back to see if anyone has any other gems for me to consider and I will be sure to follow up with pictures of the system we end up with! Will send over location info as well and if anyone happens to be in our area and helped me out here, I got a whiskey for you!

Recently sold a Technics SL-D3 for $150. One feature you may like is the repeat function in case the attendant gets busy. Not sure if you would get much flack if the same side is repeated, but it would buy some time if a song or two is played again. Better then 'dead air' so to speak. With an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge this low end automatic table sounded pretty darn good. Good luck in your quest!

Tom

 

[Lux Man]

So….your entire facility is 15’x25’. What is all in that floor space? The bar rail? Chairs along the bar? Tables for seating? Acoustic treatments?

Maybe I don’t understand something about the layout. Is it a stand alone bldg.? Is this room just one part of the rest of your layout?

Regarding the sound - personally it all starts with clear tight accurate bass even at low volume. That’s what I think I’d notice first - then add in satellites for some nice midrange and high frequency.

 

[Moby Dick]

See, you get it..

We will be far from the legit kissa's you find in NYC or Tokyo, but I know folks out here are extremely into vinyl (now younger than ever) and having an alternative place that is music centric to have a drink that is different from the endless carbon copies of dive bars in the greater area will be a welcome addition. Cocktails and upscale bar food will be the complete draw and we aren't trying to compete with hi-fi bars. An old mentor of mine used to use the term "offhand excellence". It means do something unexpectedly great even though your entire venue's purpose is to serve outstanding cocktails. In his case, it was using a professional espresso machine to make the one person a week a world class espresso that wanted one and blowing their minds on the quality of the espresso that had no business being so good in a small cocktail bar.

Looking forward to an update once your bar is up and running.
I’d love to check it out in person if I find myself in the area.

I’m a fan of vinyl, vintage stereo and cocktails so it’s right up my alley.
I don’t mind spending money on premium cocktails.
I just hope the cocktails will be proper full-size drinks, not the diminutive half portions I occasionally run into in the premium cocktail market.
Nothing more disappointing than paying $18 for a Manhattan and it only has an ounce of rye in it.

 

[BRye86]

So….your entire facility is 15’x25’. What is all in that floor space? The bar rail? Chairs along the bar? Tables for seating? Acoustic treatments?

Maybe I don’t understand something about the layout. Is it a stand alone bldg.? Is this room just one part of the rest of your layout?

Regarding the sound - personally it all starts with clear tight accurate bass even at low volume. That’s what I think I’d notice first - then add in satellites for some nice midrange and high frequency.

Yeah so I was way off on my measurements. I just got a diagram of the room and for the space needing sound it's 25x30. It's mostly a bar top with about 14 seats and a front entrance area that currently has a pool table. I'll upload the sheet when I get back to my desk.

 

[BRye86]

Looking forward to an update once your bar is up and running.
I’d love to check it out in person if I find myself in the area.

I’m a fan of vinyl, vintage stereo and cocktails so it’s right up my alley.
I don’t mind spending money on premium cocktails.
I just hope the cocktails will be proper full-size drinks, not the diminutive half portions I occasionally run into in the premium cocktail market.
Nothing more disappointing than paying $18 for a Manhattan and it only has an ounce of rye in it.

Yikes. Yeah our drinks are classics specs, so a Manhattan is 3oz of total booze, 2oz of rye. And will be well under the $18 price tag - this is a neighborhood joint.