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Advise needed for flat freq (no groove, no warmy etc) loudspeakers

MBentefor

MBentefor

New Member
Alright guys.

Turntable - bought (Numark TTX).
Amplifier - almost bought (either Marantz PM52SE or Onkyo Integra A-8700).
Now time to get serious.

This is the list:
Pioneer S-H240-QL
140$
QUADRAL quintas 500 F
200$
HECO 130 6200N
160$
MAGNAT VIVA Classic 5
180$
Canton Fonum 701DC
320$
For me the HECO one seems the best (probably ol' variant of Spirit 200). But let me know what you guys think?
(regarding Canton - this one has tiny cosmetic problems on sides; perfectly ideal one will cost 360$)
 
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What "we" or anyone else thinks is totally irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what you think. Audition all your candidates (if possible) and make your own decision. Buy whatever sounds best to you.
 
I understand the desire for "flat" but with loudspeakers it's tough to get. If you had it you might not like it. Long ago I spent many hours building a pair of speakers, measuring and tweaking until I got very close to flat, at least at 1 m in that particular room. They were the worst speakers I ever built! Unlistenable. I've only built good speakers using a combination of both measurement and listening. Either one alone is insufficient. IMO, absence of audible flaws is probably a better criteria for speakers, and they have to work right in the particular room you put them in. Agree with above post- you have to listen and go with what your ears tell you. It also helps to listen to a lot of speakers to educate your ears, including ones way above your price point. At the same time, don't assume expensive is always better.
 
I am learning that there is Flat(actually flat) and C weighted flat to correct for human ear wrongness.(Not flat at ALL.)
Makes me wonder if frequency correction DSP modules should come loaded with a hearing test instead of a microphone.
 
Yes....

What a person hears is completely different from what another person can hear. So, learning the Technical Specifications that are listed all over the web will tell you the abilities of a particular piece of equipment. Just becareful of becoming partial to one era or brand of equipment.
 
JoeESP9 said:
What "we" or anyone else thinks is totally irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what you think. Audition all your candidates (if possible) and make your own decision. Buy whatever sounds best to you.
Click to expand...
Man, that's one of the best advises I was ever given among while being among audiophiles.
That's true, I will be listening to them myself and making up own opinion.
The thing is that I just wanted to minimize a list of seller to visit.
You see, for example, maybe some manufacturers are known to make mostly rubbish stuff? (like Voice Kraft)

Gazdatronik said:
I am learning that there is Flat(actually flat) and C weighted flat to correct for human ear wrongness.(Not flat at ALL.)
Makes me wonder if frequency correction DSP modules should come loaded with a hearing test instead of a microphone.
Click to expand...
Nope. Let's suppose music was recorded was a flat-freq microphone. You don't want any weightening for output system. You wan't same flat-freq reproduction. Otherwise what you hear will be not what was recorded.

ConradH said:
I understand the desire for "flat" but with loudspeakers it's tough to get. If you had it you might not like it. Long ago I spent many hours building a pair of speakers, measuring and tweaking until I got very close to flat, at least at 1 m in that particular room. They were the worst speakers I ever built! Unlistenable. I've only built good speakers using a combination of both measurement and listening. Either one alone is insufficient. IMO, absence of audible flaws is probably a better criteria for speakers, and they have to work right in the particular room you put them in. Agree with above post- you have to listen and go with what your ears tell you. It also helps to listen to a lot of speakers to educate your ears, including ones way above your price point. At the same time, don't assume expensive is always better.
Click to expand...
Well, I am not going to pay above that Canton price. Actually my limit is 200$. I raised it only for Canton being a well-known one.
What you wrote is very interesting. Do you have any ideas why those speakers were awful? If you get a straight freq line, you should get exactly what was recorded, shouldn't you?
 
Gazdatronik said:
I am learning that there is Flat(actually flat) and C weighted flat to correct for human ear wrongness.(Not flat at ALL.)
Makes me wonder if frequency correction DSP modules should come loaded with a hearing test instead of a microphone.
Click to expand...

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If you observe the chart above you'll see that A weighting closely resembles the ear's sensitivity to various frequencies. That's why any discussion of "how loud do you play music" should have the results in A weighted values. C weighting is how/what a microphone responds to. Adjusting system response using C weighting results in a system that has flatter in room response. The flatter the in room response the closer your system will be to sounding neutral. A neutral system is IIMO the only way to have a system that get's out of the way of the music.
 
Feel for you these days. Back when I finally had more than pocket change to spend on stereo gear, we at LEAST had real "stereo stores" to visit and listen to all the gear of the day.

I passed on the king of "accurate and flat" of the day - Advents - for Altecs as that is what sounded best to me. Good luck in your quest.
 
MBentefor said:
...What you wrote is very interesting. Do you have any ideas why those speakers were awful? If you get a straight freq line, you should get exactly what was recorded, shouldn't you?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. I suppose if you put your ear where the test mic was, 1 m out, you'd get about what was recorded. Unfortunately the speaker has to work in a real room so the low end has to be designed for that, not an anechoic chamber. The dispersion matters, arrival times matter and phase probably matters. How does the tweeter beam and is there a comb effect with other drivers? It's a hugely complex problem and the response measured at a single point isn't very meaningful. I design my electronics flat because it's a simpler problem and flat makes sense. There's another thing I think about, and I'm not sure about the answer. If I could put the band/vocalist/instrument right in the living room, would I like that sound? Could I stand it long term? Would it cause fatigue? It would be too loud, so if I could somehow turn it down, would the different response (whatever the modern Fletcher-Munson curve is) be an issue? Probably yes, so then what? And all that's without considering the imperfections of drivers that have to be dealt with.
 
Not a clue, as I haven't heard any of them, in fact they don't seem to be sold under those numbers in the US. They all look competent, so you'll just have to listen.

On the weighting topic, there's some good info on my favorite mammoth scientific site: http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/c/w/cweighting/source.html
Go to the bottom of the page and read the description of each type of weighting. These weightings are usually used to shape noise measurements so the results reflect human perception or annoyance level. They probably aren't useful in tuning the response of a speaker system.
 
Guys, just wanted to keep you updated.
Also I think someday my reports can be useful for some rambler.

Listened to all except Canton. Seller of Canton lied that he is in my city. In fact he is 30 km from it. And I don't really have time to get 30 km (45 from my place) for listening to an expensive brand-is-cool-so-what.
  • Pioneer S-H240-QL - nothing. Simply nothing. Nothing good, nothing bad, extremely plain speakers. However the reason could be probably because of using no preamp - seller didn't have a preamp, so I turned my music through his DVD/VCR combo connected to speakers.
  • Heco 130 6200N - a lot of bass. Too much. In calm pieces (Hiromi's "11:49 PM") it's cool, but in more rocky - bass starts to howl. Instruments are all mixed in one big instrument. I felt non-comfortable listening to these.
  • Magnat Viva classic 5 - bit lack of bass. It is noticeable only in songs where vocalist has a lower timbre - some letters can be a bit missed (Mykola Mozgovyi - Minaye den, minaye nich). Also bass line is not that cool&obvious (Englishmen in New York walking bass part). From the other side I can clearly hear each instrument (Piazzolla in Rosario - 1973 - Retrato De Milton). Voices and pianos are crystal. And stereo balance is awesome. Funny they are three way but there are only 2 speakers in each. Interesting... Maybe 3rd is a resonator?
  • QUADRAL quintas 500F - Nothing. A bit less bass than in Heco. A bit less mixing than in Heco. Stereo discomfort. Not nice mids.
Currently I see Magnat as my only choice.

Hope Marantz PM52SE will drive them as good as Yamaha AX-1050 I listened them with.

P.S. By the way, seller offered Yamaha AX-1050 too. I thinked a lot. I think sound will be more or less same good. And all those knobs are not worth 150$ more.
 
studio monitors...many brands have made them...like the name says, for use in a recording studio...
 
Its easy if your sound system is out doors where the acoustical properties of the listening space don't altar the sound. I use to take four Altec 817 boxes with MR 94 horns with 299 drivers bi amped to smaller out door gatherings and with the woofers stacked on the stage or elevated ground the system would be flat from 40 to 3,200 hz and roll off about 6 db by 10 kHz extending out further to 16 khs. All I needed was a 5 band parametric Eq with 2 or 3 db correction hear or there for a +/- 2db envelope.

You can't reach a flat curve in a home, but who would want to? You want a smooth curve with a little warm in the bass and a slight roll off in the highs, maybe 6 db by 16 or 20 kHz. The only way to get that is with a speaker with controlled dispersion and well treated room to control reflections and standing waves. Remember you can only voice the direct emissions of a speaker, once the room comes into play, you are in big trouble.

We use to compromise bt voicing the system at the point where the direct sound of the speaker equalled the energy of the reflections in the Room. called Dc. That would be a compromise. Remember the ear hears sounds instantaneously for definition and location, but uses a waited filter to integrate the reflected sound over time.
 
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Speakers interact a lot with the room, so those speakers you listened to may sound a bit different in YOUR listening space. Maybe not enough to change your choice.

Not using a preamp is preferred by many since it removes electronic components from the signal path.

The amp you use may interact a little differently with one speaker or another, and perhaps differently from the seller's amp. If I had seen this thread before you did any listening, I would have recommended looking at nominal impedance and sensitivity ratings to make sure your amp can drive the load well. Still a good idea. It's amazing how different the output is from an 88 db/w speaker is from a 95 db/w speaker using the same amp, for example. And if you like a set of 4 ohm speakers make sure your amp can handle a 4 ohm load.

"Studio monitors" are designed for near-field listening and are extremely flat in an ideal room (which studios probably come closer to than the average living room, one hopes!).
 
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