Altec 19’s w Other woofers

[Nyjblbob]

No, it's not trivial.

The difference between the 416-8C variants is even significant. The early, flat magnet, 416-8C's produced under EVI ownership were the worst. Recent production GPA 416-8C's are very good.

Thanks for that information T
I suspected they weren’t the same
Besides the 416’C’s are not nice examples
Need new Corks in places and cones are far from mint
Seeing as I already have a fresh non original Recones by Millersound pair of 3156’s.
Usually I have found his recones out perform
Originals
Btw will these 1233 Xover’s I recently Purchased be a suitable replacement for the original 19 Xover’s?
I know there’s no High frequency EQ in them
But they do have a 1200 htz Xover point
Mid drivers are 808’s with Original Diaframs
I can add some L pads

 

[bowtie427ss]

Btw will these 1233 Xover’s I recently Purchased be a suitable replacement for the original 19 Xover’s?

Not really.

The model 19 network has a lot going on in it, an HF eq/compensation circuit as well as HF and MF shelving adjustments.

The 12XX networks are quite different in both topology and the type of components used(laminated core vs air core inductors). The actual knee points and slopes are very different. They were also designed for use with HF drivers loaded with symbiotik diaphragms which have dramatic roll-off on the upper end compared to an 802 or 902.

Laminated core inductors don't sound the same as air core, and the laminated core inductors used in vintage JBL and Altec networks were used for very good reason, their sound. JBL still uses plenty of laminated core inductors in their current and contemporary products.

The N1201 network is the same as the 19 network, and the N1209 being very similar would be the only compatible network out of the Altec "pro" world. The N1209 uses some mildly different component values, and has parallel 1/4 TS inputs on the crossover chassis whereas the N1201 is designed to be used with a separate input terminal plate.

 

[elitopus]

Hey Bowtie, tell us more about laminated core inductors versus air core. I have a bunch of both of them floating around in my inductor stash, but I’ve never compared an air versus lam core of the same value in the same circuit.

I’ve always heard that air core are more “HiFi” and it having to do something about how the inductor acts when it’s saturated. Which basically I’ve heard that laminated core will reach saturation before air core. In pro applications I’ve wondered if this could be a sort of built in protection for the speaker drivers, or maybe I’m wrong and the opposite happens.

I’m also curious about lam versus air core inductors on a HF versus LF circuit, and which one you can “hear” more.

I don’t want to get too far off subject about the M19 woofers, as I’m learning a lot about the ferrite 416, which I have no experience with. Just was curious about the sound difference you mentioned. It makes me want to go test the two and see which one I prefer.

 

[bowtie427ss]

Real simple story of 846B's from several years ago before i joined AK and was just a lurker. I read these glowing testimonials of folks replacing all of the crossover components and what a dramatic improvement it made. I had replaced the caps upon my initial purchase as one had failed open, i had been listening to them re-capped with stock inductors for the better part of a year. I was very familiar with their sound.

Curiosity about what i had read got the best of me. So i ordered up some air cores. The differences weren't immediately dramatic. I suppose it could be argued that there was low end improvement on some material. But, over time i kept thinking that something wasn't right, something was missing.

I should have, but did not take the time to make the change in only one speaker at a time to do any kind of side by side comparison. I just wanted the system back up and running so i could enjoy it. After it ate at me enough, i just did a total change back to the stock laminated inductors, and there it was! The sweet and delicate Altec Technicolor midrange was back. With other woofers in other systems the results might be completely different. But, for me there is something fundamental about the 416(and it's siblings) paired with those chokes/inductors made to Altec's specs.

 

[elitopus]

Interesting bowtie. Thanks for the explanation. I’ll have to try it sometime.

 

[billyz]

Air core inductors usually have higher DCR than a iron or laminate core inductor. To get an air coil with the same dcr , it would be huge and very expensive.