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Amp vs receiver - comparable price/ sense

S

saharadust

Member
Hi,

I’m based in Moscow, Russia, and t’s my first post here - hopefully I’m not messing it up as to where to post a query such as this.

I’ve been out of the hi-fi mania for a good few years and now am trying to catch up as I’d like to upgrade my early 2000s setup to vintage.

I have a receiver myself and I do recall receivers being generally seen as inferior to integrateds (let alone separates) by most folks. They would say that a receiver valued at say $500 would deliver at a level of an integrated amp valued at $250.

I wonder whether that holds true for vintage components at all (as well as for modern, for that matter). I’m actually not interested in having a tuner at all but obviously receivers are usually cool in looks and there’s so much great feedback on many of them that I’d be quite prepared to give a vintage receiver a try.

Having said this, I’m struggling to understand what drives the following prices I can see on a Russian site similar to eBay ( I’d much rather do with local pickup or in country delivery - that’s why not wanting to use any foreign eBay):

- Accuphase e-203 — $715
- Harman/Kardon 930 — $715
- Marantz 1120 — $570
- McIntosh MAC1700 — $1285 to $1430.

Condition of each is comparable and apparently minty.

These are just a few examples....there’s a lot more instances that I don’t really understand. And, I haven’t even started on speakers!

So I’m looking for some advice for dummies as to what would be a sensible approach to deciphering these prices.

Thanks in advance and all the best
Boris
 
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Hi Boris, welcome to AK. I think many of us would disagree with your premise that a receiver is necessarily inferior to an integrated amp. While certain receivers are not as good as certain integrated amps, there are others that are better, so as with most things audio, "it depends", and I wouldn't go looking to replace my receiver just because it's a receiver. Instead, why not tell us what your entire system consists of so far, then we can make better recommendations on what you should do.

Regarding the prices you've listed, Accuphase and McIntosh always demand a premium. The H/K receiver and Marantz amp would be overpriced in the US; not sure about Russia. My experience has been that in general, name brand electronics prices in the US are lower than pretty much anywhere else in the world (and that includes China, although you can certainly find many off-brand electronics for less there). Assuming you're considering the purchase of one of those you listed, I think the Accuphase is probably the best deal (although the price does appear high compared to purchasing in Europe, but you did say you wanted to buy local).

One additional thing to keep in mind: all these components are from the 1970s, and are likely to require some reconditioning (e.g. replacement capacitors). If you're not up to the task yourself, you should consider repair costs as well.
 
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- Accuphase e-203 — $715 good quality unit but hard to service since the manuals are generally not available
- Harman/Kardon 930 — $715 way overpriced but that might be because of the market you are in. Would need to investigate this.
- Marantz 1120 $570 Marantz name on vintage gear carries a premium but this one isn't too bad for a 60wpc unit. Compare to Kenwood KA-7100/7300/8100/8300
- McIntosh MAC1700 — $1285 to $1430. Don't know what these should sell for since I don't watch McIntosh but it is a brand that commands a premium, too, along with the Pioneer/Marantz/Sansui trio and JBL and some Klipsch speakers. Your market may vary.
 
Thank you, swechsler, for taking the time to respond; that is helpful.

I’ll start with describing my system and we can take it from there. It consists of:
- Acoustic Energy AEGIS Evo Three speakers connected by Harmonic Technology cables to a
- Marantz SR5500 receiver, connected by a Straight Wire interconnect to
- Onkyo DV-SP504E - SACD/DVD player, and
- Arktur 006, which is a vintage TT from the Soviet era.

The system is used in a 20 sq m living room but I’m looking to get an entirely new setup in another room - that one is perhaps 35 ish sq meters. I’ll keep the old system also (and I’ve got to say that I’ve been quite happy with it for most of the time).

So I’ve been thinking along the following lines:
1) getting bookshelf speakers instead of floor standing ones - in an attempt to achieve a more articulate sound. My main candidates will be AR 3a and some Celestion Dittons

2) I’d rather go with an SS amp rather than tube. I’ve been thinking of Marantz PM6a or 1250 or those I’ve cited as examples above. As I say, I was surprised to learn of such high praise that many receivers get so am totally open to suggestions.

3) Looking to get a tape deck - haven’t really researched much but Nakamichi gets a lot of praise (although I wouldn’t want to spend a lot on this)

4) Lenco L75 will be my main TT candidate.

5) I’d much rather have a universal disc (i.e. CD/DVD/possibly Blu Ray) player than a CD player, much like my Onkyo but would expect a step up from that level.

6) fortunately or unfortunately, I’ve been doing a great deal of streaming of late - so my iPhone is a source also, via Bluetooth, and it’d be great to obtain a higher quality Bluetooth device for that.
 
Blue Shadow said:
- Accuphase e-203 — $715 good quality unit but hard to service since the manuals are generally not available
- Harman/Kardon 930 — $715 way overpriced but that might be because of the market you are in. Would need to investigate this.
- Marantz 1120 $570 Marantz name on vintage gear carries a premium but this one isn't too bad for a 60wpc unit. Compare to Kenwood KA-7100/7300/8100/8300
- McIntosh MAC1700 — $1285 to $1430. Don't know what these should sell for since I don't watch McIntosh but it is a brand that commands a premium, too, along with the Pioneer/Marantz/Sansui trio and JBL and some Klipsch speakers. Your market may vary.
Click to expand...
Thanks - that is very illuminating.
 
As far as receivers vs. integrated amps, all devices represent a compromise. The fewer things you've got in the box, the fewer compromises that need to be made, in general of course. I don't listen to radio so have no use for a receiver or a separate tuner. I like having fewer components however so I've gone with an integrated. Good compromise in my case.

I'd only consider vintage, especially at those prices, if you've got a repair tech within easy access. It would be a bad situation if you were to spend so much only to be stopped because of an age related issue. As said above, if the Accuphase develops an issue you've either got to send it back or have a tech diag without a schematic.

I have noticed that a lot of the gear for sale in Russia is usually in excellent cosmetic shape. That's always a big plus. It's usually a much easier project to repair electrical issues over cosmetic.
 
Personally, I prefer separates, but it is nice to have a receiver just for a difference. While I like integrated amps, in general, if it is of decent quality, separates will easily outshine the receiver. More challenging, a really good integrated. Buyers tended to be willing to pay more for separates, but insisted on better quality as well. There isn't much sense in buying an amp for more dollars and end up with poorer quality.

If you plan on buying Celestion Ditton speakers, I would go for the Accuphase or the Harman Kardon. Dittons like the kind of power they deliver. I've never had the MAC1700, but I've had two MAC1900s. I would be concerned about the amount of instant current the 1700 and Marantz could deliver. Others might disagree. I've never had either. Just an FYI, my first vintage system when I got back into this hobby was a MAC1900 and Celestion Ditton 66s. They were not a good match and this led me to go on a purchasing frenzy, trying to find 'the sound'! I don't have any Celestions at the moment, but I still like them. My son had a pair of Ditton 44s and they sounded great. I upgraded him to Kef Concerto, and his only issue is he could use a little more power.
 
saharadust said:
Hi,

I’m based in Moscow, Russia, and t’s my first post here - hopefully I’m not messing it up as to where to post a query such as this.

I’ve been out of the hi-fi mania for a good few years and now am trying to catch up as I’d like to upgrade my early 2000s setup to vintage.

I have a receiver myself and I do recall receivers being generally seen as inferior to integrateds (let alone separates) by most folks. They would say that a receiver valued at say $500 would deliver at a level of an integrated amp valued at $250.

I wonder whether that holds true for vintage components at all (as well as for modern, for that matter). I’m actually not interested in having a tuner at all but obviously receivers are usually cool in looks and there’s so much great feedback on many of them that I’d be quite prepared to give a vintage receiver a try.

Having said this, I’m struggling to understand what drives the following prices I can see on a Russian site similar to eBay ( I’d much rather do with local pickup or in country delivery - that’s why not wanting to use any foreign eBay):

- Accuphase e-203 — $715
- Harman/Kardon 930 — $715
- Marantz 1120 — $570
- McIntosh MAC1700 — $1285 to $1430.

Condition of each is comparable and apparently minty.

These are just a few examples....there’s a lot more instances that I don’t really understand. And, I haven’t even started on speakers!

So I’m looking for some advice for dummies as to what would be a sensible approach to deciphering these prices.

Thanks in advance and all the best
Boris
Click to expand...


Sellers can ask whatever they want, doesn't mean they will get it.
Using "completed SOLD sales" will give you an idea what people are actually paying on ebay.
If there are several recent "SOLD" listings, the highest and lowest might be anamolies and you might toss them out (depending on the total condition of the item sold) and then average the other sold prices.
Condition matters, a lot. And can add quite a bit depending on completeness (boxes, paper work, etc) and any work done, total refurbishment can add a good bit if done properly by a tech with a good repuation.

"SERVICED" doesn't mean diddly squat.You need to know what that sellers' "serviced" means.
It can range from I wiped it off to I plugged it in and the lights came on, to control cleaning to minor repairs, to an all out recap and service.
 
Thanks again to everyone who responded; that's been really helpful and thought provoking.

The four units above I cited just as some examples of MANY vintage parts on offer here in Moscow. I'll try and explain what I'm after and what it is that I struggle to understand. I suspect the what I want part would be more for another part of the forum so I'll get on with the prices issue first.
 
Blue Shadow said:
- Marantz 1120 $570 Marantz name on vintage gear carries a premium but this one isn't too bad for a 60wpc unit. Compare to Kenwood KA-7100/7300/8100/8300
Click to expand...
Now that is almost revelatory. I can see the following Kenwoods on offer:
- KA 7100 - from $260 to $300 (includes a Trio version with the same index - presumably it's something more luxurious?)
- KA 7300 - from $270 to $435 (also some of the units are Trios with the same index)
- KA 8100 - n/a
- KA 8300 - from $360 to $785 (here, a Trio with that index is a cheaper one... unlike the above models, here Trio and Kenwood look like totally different amps... the Kenwood even has meters!).

But are you saying that these Kenwoods are in the same league as the 1120?
 
BilboBaggins said:
Personally, I prefer separates, but it is nice to have a receiver just for a difference. While I like integrated amps, in general, if it is of decent quality, separates will easily outshine the receiver. More challenging, a really good integrated. Buyers tended to be willing to pay more for separates, but insisted on better quality as well. There isn't much sense in buying an amp for more dollars and end up with poorer quality.

If you plan on buying Celestion Ditton speakers, I would go for the Accuphase or the Harman Kardon. Dittons like the kind of power they deliver. I've never had the MAC1700, but I've had two MAC1900s. I would be concerned about the amount of instant current the 1700 and Marantz could deliver. Others might disagree. I've never had either. Just an FYI, my first vintage system when I got back into this hobby was a MAC1900 and Celestion Ditton 66s. They were not a good match and this led me to go on a purchasing frenzy, trying to find 'the sound'! I don't have any Celestions at the moment, but I still like them. My son had a pair of Ditton 44s and they sounded great. I upgraded him to Kef Concerto, and his only issue is he could use a little more power.
Click to expand...
Thanks - very interesting (in particular regarding pairing the Dittons and the MAC....). I don't have any set strategy or anything like that, i.e. if I can get a good deal on separates I'd go with them but if there's a TOTL receiver that'll be convincing on audition I'll go with that one. Getting back to my example, what I don't understand is how a receiver, even though it's a MAC, can cost twice as much as a good integrated amp that is the Accuphase.
 
OMGCat! said:
As far as receivers vs. integrated amps, all devices represent a compromise. The fewer things you've got in the box, the fewer compromises that need to be made, in general of course. I don't listen to radio so have no use for a receiver or a separate tuner. I like having fewer components however so I've gone with an integrated. Good compromise in my case.
Click to expand...
Same here, I don't need radio at all. I guess put it simply, what I'm questioning is whether there are receivers (and I did find some real pricey ones like that MAC 1700) that would be convincing enough on audition so as to outperform an integrated amp or separates! If that is the case I'd go with such a receiver even though I'd probably use the tuner in it just once. If nothing else, however, it'll save some space that would otherwise be used up by separates etc. Until I go searching for the next best adventure, that is...
 
Unless there are listenable distant radio stations that you really love, just save your money and pair a good integrated amp with a cheap tuner.

If you want to improve it, put on a better antenna with a rotor.
 
jberger said:
Unless there are listenable distant radio stations that you really love, just save your money and pair a good integrated amp with a cheap tuner.

If you want to improve it, put on a better antenna with a rotor.
Click to expand...
Sorry - haven't I just said that I hardly ever listen to radio?
 
Quality of sound might be
accuphase MAC1700 and HK might be the best sounding three brands but the
Kenwood, all of them (called Kenwood in US/Canada but Trio in rest of the world same amps really) is not far behind. The age of the Marantz has me wondering if newer cleaner technology would be something better or just different.

Now if you find a Trio 500 or 600, they are the better line from the company. The ones above with twin transformers might have the edge in those Trio amps with 4 digits in the number.
 
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Accuphase was a spin-off from Trio of some engineers that wanted to make more upscale gear. This should be audible. Kenwood continued to produce products similar to Pioneer, Sansui and Marantz and did a few better amps at times but bread and butter, most bought the regular gear not the higher end gear so Kenwood wanted to sell more like those other brands.
 
saharadust said:
Thanks - very interesting (in particular regarding pairing the Dittons and the MAC....). I don't have any set strategy or anything like that, i.e. if I can get a good deal on separates I'd go with them but if there's a TOTL receiver that'll be convincing on audition I'll go with that one. Getting back to my example, what I don't understand is how a receiver, even though it's a MAC, can cost twice as much as a good integrated amp that is the Accuphase.
Click to expand...

I’m certain you are paying a premium on the name with the MAC1700 price. But then again, the prices of McIntosh have been going up. If I recall, the MAC1700 is also a hybrid. I believe it uses tubes for the tuner.

It sounds like you can pick and choose with the choices you have. Why don’t you try to define what look and features you would like, and see if it is practical?
 
If I was setting up for a 20 sqm room, I'd use something like KLH model 6 matched with Ampex or Fisher tube amp and Sonos connect with a dac if you need to stream music. Great bang for your buck combo. Some console or suite case tube amps. I had a studio and a listening room at different times with similar size, and those combo really sounded good and intimate.
 
gogofast said:
If I was setting up for a 20 sqm room, I'd use something like KLH model 6 matched with Ampex or Fisher tube amp and Sonos connect with a dac if you need to stream music. Great bang for your buck combo. Some console or suite case tube amps. I had a studio and a listening room at different times with similar size, and those combo really sounded good and intimate.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestions - the only thing is that I'm now looking to equip a more spacious room - 35 sqm or so.
 
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