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Amplification is underrated

H

hopeless

AK Subscriber
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With my man cave strewn with carcasses of broken audio bits, I have reinforced an audio truism. You can't beat a really stiff amplifier. After my post lightning fiasco, I set up the old Audio Research LS1/Bryston 4BST combo. While not as "big" and smooth as the Electrocompaniet, it was punchy, tight, and definitely in control. Downside was that the Bryston had to reside on an inverted storage tote. The wife acceptance factor was very low. So, out comes the h/k PM660...technical difficulties. Out comes the PM635. The least capable amplifier in the stable. While it was satisfactory, not "great" with the Energy C1s, coming off of the Bryston, the flabby bass and the comparatively disjointed presentation was pretty disappointing. I need to get out some real amplification, so the Accusonic will back up the LS1. 70 watts of 2.3 ohm stable happiness. Sonically far superior to the Niles 275 that will fit in the cabinet, and the 2125 that won't. The little breadbox that could. Still, not the Bryston or the Electrocompaniet.
Capable high end amplification is worth every nickel spent. The ability to make little speakers sound big is only the beginning. Got my brothers attention this week.
Anyway, carry on. Just rambling
 
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While the added headroom provided by an amplifier with more watts will make a difference, especially if you were already pushing the lower powered amplifier to, or past its limits, there is still the "quality" of those watts to consider.

A 200wpc amplifier with a low damping factor, poor slew rate and limited headroom may get louder but may not sound "better" than a lower powered amplifier with better specs.

"Better" being the relative term and we all interpret it differently. Personally will take tightly controlled bass, great imaging, dynamic range and channel separation over raw power every time.

Louder and "better" are easily confused.
 
It certainly is in the context of the belief that all amps sound the same...which absolutely has not been my experience. So I agree with the predominant message here...lots of high quality power can make a difference and with the potential to do so in a way that can change the way you think about a particular pair of speakers. I've been through it numerous times, most recently with a pair of Energy Veritas 2.2 powered by a White Oak Phase Linear 700B (just under 500wpc@8).

The surprise, for me, is how much control and presence they have in a space that's arguably too big for them (19x26 with vaulted ceiling to 14'). I've listened to them in smaller spaces (16x20x8 and 11x12x8) with significantly less power and although they still impressed, they didn't wow me with their authority and scale like they are with the significantly larger helping of grunt. The speakers pictured behind them are Klipsch Epic CF-4's which have two 12" LF drivers and a 2" compression driver in the largest Tractrix horn Klipsch offered in a non-professional design. The big Epics have them beat on sheer SPL and the ability to deliver gobs of tactile energy from top to bottom...but up to SPL's in the mid to upper 80's (where some distortion from the 2.2's begins to develop), scale of sound stage and the palpable presence of sonic content is waaaaay closer between the two than I ever would've expected in such a large space. That never really happened before with something like a Musical Fidelity M2si or Nuprime IDA-8 in the much smaller spaces.
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wmgwizard said:
While the added headroom provided by an amplifier with more watts will make a difference, especially if you were already pushing the lower powered amplifier to, or past its limits, there is still the "quality" of those watts to consider.

A 200wpc amplifier with a low damping factor, poor slew rate and limited headroom may get louder but may not sound "better" than a lower powered amplifier with better specs.

"Better" being the relative term and we all interpret it differently. Personally will take tightly controlled bass, great imaging, dynamic range and channel separation over raw power every time.

Louder and "better" are easily confused.
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Absolutely agree here. I once did a three way comparison between an Onkyo M-504, Denon POA-1500 and a Threshold S/300...all close in power @8 ohm with the Threshold being the one with the lowest rated power (at that load). With a pair of ADS 1290/II's, the Threshold demonstrated clear superiority in every facet of fidelity. I was at a point in the hobby where my eyes were just being opened to the difference between mid-fi and truly hi-fi equipment, and this single experience really galvanized it...and pretty much ended my honeymoon with VU meters.
 
wmgwizard said:
While the added headroom provided by an amplifier with more watts will make a difference, especially if you were already pushing the lower powered amplifier to, or past its limits, there is still the "quality" of those watts to consider.

A 200wpc amplifier with a low damping factor, poor slew rate and limited headroom may get louder but may not sound "better" than a lower powered amplifier with better specs.

"Better" being the relative term and we all interpret it differently. Personally will take tightly controlled bass, great imaging, dynamic range and channel separation over raw power every time.

Louder and "better" are easily confused.
Click to expand...
Amazingly, "better" is actually pretty well understood. Many don't listen for it. The finer details. Once they do, the game changes. All the stuff with no line on the spec sheet. Breaking audio performance down to merely published specs is incredibly short sighted
 
There are some posting in this thread that know and appreciate the quality of the watts. For most of ak, there doesn't seem to be an interest in going to the high end as one of the main reasons folks here like receivers is the looks, with all the knobs, switches, buttons, dials and meters. Even those that own a pile of now valuable totl receivers, they want to keep them, not move to a meterless Threshold or any number of other great sounding amps.

It is all part of the hobby and what we have done to appreciate the high-quality power amps is critical listening. And we have a thread about this being unknown by some.

As to the low damping factor, my best sounding amp has low damping factor, yes, you guessed it, tubes. It is the reason the ADS 1590/2 are no longer here, the bass was not what I wanted with these amps but the speakers were fine with the McCormack. Other speakers don't exhibit as much of a decrease in performance with the better sounding amp with low damping factor.

It is all about listening to what you have and Getting Better Sound whether through using the techniques in Jim Smith's book of just getting together with friends in the hobby and trying different gear.
 
There's the "weakest link in the chain" thing too.
If your amp is the weak link, replacing it should reap dividends.

Regardless, would like to trial a WOPL some day........ just cause I want to.
 
Audio is like Burger King. Have it your way! At least it's one of the hobbies where a mistake, or equipment failure, USUALLY isn't likely to land you in a hospital, or a pine box! And, as hobbies go, it's actually pretty benign for bystanders, unless you forget where the volume was when you turned the system off, or something......

For my needs, I decided years ago that 125-ish watts into 8 ohms was going the default standard for my system. With that out of the way, it became a simple matter of looking for increasingly better 125-ish watt amps as the need for replacement rolled around. My current amp is rated at 130 high quality, high current watts. Might be more than my fairly efficient speakers really need, but that first watt is really good, and Overkill is my middle name....!
 
hopeless said:
That would largely depend on the quality of the amplifier. I made a substantial upgrade going from 250 to 100.
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I think I can one up that. I went from a Kenwood KA-8006 to a NAD 20 watt receiver and the NAD needed a bigger floor to mop up the Kenwood with so yes it does matter the quality. I think that was because the NAD could handle transient highs of 400 watts if I remember correctly along with soft clipping and better design helped.

But I went from an Outlaw RR2160 that's a very well regarded receiver doing 165 watts into the 4 ohms Cantons and the Parasound doing 400 into the Cantons. I knew before the Parasound that the Outlaw just didn't have what the Cantons needed. They need the power of the Parasound. Never felt the need for more power until a pair of power hungry speakers arrived.
 
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Having an amp with enough balls that it won't clip when driving speakers to the desired volume level is always a good and why the standard amp specs in and of themselves has some folks living with underrated amplification.
 
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Does this check the boxes with anyone? I am looking for a new amp to drive the JBL LE14As in a bi-amp config in my system. Is the enough damping...experts?
 
I’m another who (maybe not in y’all’s leagues) downsized from a 125 wpc Nikko Alpha II, to an old 23 wpc Conn 7868 tube amp. The sound is so much fuller and life-like to my ears, and it astounds me, this huge difference.
 
When doing an apples to apples comparison, which I'll define as amps in the same line, the more powerful one has always seemed better to me. If you're talking different brands or even different lines within a brand, then that's a whole other thing.

The possible reasons for this are legion and could certainly include unconscious bias on my part or even condition as none of my amps were new when I got them.
 
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