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Amplification is underrated

stereofanboy said:
When doing an apples to apples comparison, which I'll define as amps in the same line, the more powerful one has always seemed better to me. If you're talking different brands or even different lines within a brand, then that's a whole other thing.

The possible reasons for this are legion and could certainly include unconscious bias on my part or even condition as none of my amps were new when I got them.
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The OP started comparing a less than 6 kilograms lightweight class AB 30 wpc amp HK PM635 (poor quality for potentiometers, switches and circuit card) with no headroom against several bigger boys.... also in comments, people always go to the extremes, which simply does not substantially count for 90% of people into audio and 99% of the common public. It was far from comparing apples to apples, at least this is how is my impression
 
gslikker said:
The OP started comparing a less than 6 kilograms lightweight class AB 30 wpc amp HK PM635 (poor quality for potentiometers, switches and circuit card) with no headroom against several bigger boys.... also in comments, people always go to the extremes, which simply does not substantially count for 90% of people into audio and 99% of the common public. It was far from comparing apples to apples, at least this is how is my impression
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Different classes of amplification. My point was that "you can't go back." Once you have had good amplification, you understand the value of it. The 635 is a great little amp, better than most in its class. I've recommended it to many as a starter. I got spoiled.
 
hopeless said:
Perreaux is great stuff that never got any traction in the US. Repped it for quite a while but it was a hard sell.
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Such a shame, they are definitely up there with the other bread and butter high end amps.
I love my Perreaux to death, I was lucky to get a newly serviced one, with new driver transistors (with a different pinout the the originals) and associated caps.
The main power caps are original, and will power the amp for a few seconds when I cut the power.
Why do I like it so much? juice, it's got the juice and plenty of it.
 
wmgwizard said:
It's not about "enough balls", it's not about only using .3w.

The circuit design, layout and quality of the individual components are what separates mid-fi from hi-fi and you can hear the difference.
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This right here. Alluding to my prior post about the Onkyo, Denon, Threshold comparison, just from the outside...casework/chassis, quality of switches and connections, hard-wired vs IEC terminated power chord...you can tell the difference. Pop the hood and take a look inside and it's absurdly obvious the Threshold is a whole different animal altogether. And all of it translates into a sonic performance that is consistent with the build quality.
 
My general preference is to consider speaker efficiency as a critically important factor, knowing that less power will be required to drive high efficiency designs. I've also owned amps running the gamut from flea watt tubes to high power separates. Contrary to the general consensus, I found lots-o-watts to be wasted (in general) in use, where I almost never listen at high levels. I'd look at the very large, very heavy chunks of amplifier 'iron' sitting on the shelf and think how silly it was (to me) to have that much wasted power.

I've driven my floor standers, currently JBL Studio 590s, with integrateds and separates putting out 200w, 100w, 80w, 40W and 8 and 3 (!) tube watts. The 8 watt tube amp would easily go louder than I wanted into the 590s but was a little sloppy, especially in the lower registers. The other amps sounded different but ALL provided as much grunt as I wanted. I currently use an integrated that puts out between 80-140W into 6 ohms and almost never turn the volume knob very much. Much of the damping and reserve just sits there unused because I prefer to listen at very moderate levels.

In my use case, more power would absolutely be wasted. That's not to say amps sound the same, and perhaps a particular amp that also happens to have loads more power would sound better to me, but IMO it would be much more about the sound signature of the amp/speakers combo than the power it has in reserve.
 
Another thing to consider is that when you "step up" through the offerings from any major maufacturer's amplifiers, typically they have better and better "specs" for things like slew rate, THD, damping factor, and power rating into 4 vs 8 ohms, all of which lead to better sound.

To compare the difference between "big watts" and "small watts" you should be comparing equivalent designs. I'd bet the OP would hear a lot less difference between a Kenwood KA-400 and my current amp, a Kenwood KA-88 because while the 400 is rated at 45 watts/channel and the 88 is rated at 120 watts/channel, they both have 0.004 or 0.005% THD ratings at half power and have fairly high damping factors.

Compared to an amp with a THD rating of 0.04% and a damping factor of 35, I'd bet you'd hear a difference if you have good ears.

It's not just raw electrical power that makes a good amp indeed.
 
tomlinmgt said:
It certainly is in the context of the belief that all amps sound the same...which absolutely has not been my experience. So I agree with the predominant message here...lots of high quality power can make a difference and with the potential to do so in a way that can change the way you think about a particular pair of speakers. I've been through it numerous times, most recently with a pair of Energy Veritas 2.2 powered by a White Oak Phase Linear 700B (just under 500wpc@8).

The surprise, for me, is how much control and presence they have in a space that's arguably too big for them (19x26 with vaulted ceiling to 14'). I've listened to them in smaller spaces (16x20x8 and 11x12x8) with significantly less power and although they still impressed, they didn't wow me with their authority and scale like they are with the significantly larger helping of grunt. The speakers pictured behind them are Klipsch Epic CF-4's which have two 12" LF drivers and a 2" compression driver in the largest Tractrix horn Klipsch offered in a non-professional design. The big Epics have them beat on sheer SPL and the ability to deliver gobs of tactile energy from top to bottom...but up to SPL's in the mid to upper 80's (where some distortion from the 2.2's begins to develop), scale of sound stage and the palpable presence of sonic content is waaaaay closer between the two than I ever would've expected in such a large space. That never really happened before with something like a Musical Fidelity M2si or Nuprime IDA-8 in the much smaller spaces.
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Nice big space, looks like a great audio hideout. :thumbsup:
 
HPMguy said:
Another thing to consider is that when you "step up" through the offerings from any major maufacturer's amplifiers, typically they have better and better "specs" for things like slew rate, THD, damping factor, and power rating into 4 vs 8 ohms, all of which lead to better sound.

To compare the difference between "big watts" and "small watts" you should be comparing equivalent designs. I'd bet the OP would hear a lot less difference between a Kenwood KA-400 and my current amp, a Kenwood KA-88 because while the 400 is rated at 45 watts/channel and the 88 is rated at 120 watts/channel, they both have 0.004 or 0.005% THD ratings at half power and have fairly high damping factors.

Compared to an amp with a THD rating of 0.04% and a damping factor of 35, I'd bet you'd hear a difference if you have good ears.

It's not just raw electrical power that makes a good amp indeed.
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Well, I really hate to break it too you, but none of those aspects mentioned really result in big sonic differences. In fact, microscopicically small THD numbers usually indicate ridiculously high levels of negative feedback, which will often be used to cover for compromised amplifier designs or lowered parts quality. You can't hear 1%. Most people can't hear 10% in complex music.
Slew rates? It's important, but not life and death. A modest improvement isn't going to be heard.
When it's all boiled down, the important thing becomes current delivery and heat dissipation. How the amplifier reacts to the speaker load presented is largely this. Fundamentally, the amplifiers job is to maintain voltage into a variable and often demanding load while maintaining signal integrity. Once that is accomplished, it is possible for a designer to address other issues resulting in better sounstaging and imaging. This is what a good amplifier does.
 
Being poor all my life, all I can talk about is the vintage JVC, Marantz, PL (gasp!), and Heathkit amps of the pre mid 1990s. But it was my experience that virtually every upgrade to higher power meant better sound. It was rare that the sound quality went up when one downgraded to lower power. Not unheard of...but rare.
 
Adda said:
Such a shame, they are definitely up there with the other bread and butter high end amps.
I love my Perreaux to death, I was lucky to get a newly serviced one, with new driver transistors (with a different pinout the the originals) and associated caps.
The main power caps are original, and will power the amp for a few seconds when I cut the power.
Why do I like it so much? juice, it's got the juice and plenty of it.
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Takes about 30 seconds for the music to die when this is turned off :cool:
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opnly bafld said:
You should have tried upgrading to lower power. As has been stated, quality over quantity.
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I guess I should have reworded it. At that time, MOST of the time if you bought lower power, that was a downgrade, even if the advertisements said otherwise. I have no idea what I could have had in the unlimited money range. Keep in mind the price range of the equipment similar to what I mentioned. I did hear other people's higher priced systems, but certainly none, especially those of lower power (of which at least most were) sounded any better than mine. I saw no need to "upgrade" to lower power.
I had Klipsch Corner Horns and had worked my way up to a tri-amped system with a Phase Linear and two Marantz Amps. I designed my music room around that system. Friends did bring over some amps to try...a couple of McIntosh (they sounded good), a Naim something or other, and a pair of Carver Cubes (LOL!! Those things sounded like they were right on the edge all the time.) I have a feeling you would say that I should have "upgraded" to another speaker system (and amp, I am sure!). In my opinion, there is no better sounding speaker than the Corner Horns I had, especially when loaded up with power. I would give anything if I could have kept them, and that system. This was from the around the mid 1990s to about 5 years ago.
Just remember....I am talking about my ears....not yours. And not a hundred thousand dollar system. Just the best I could afford, buying mostly used.
 
Zygmo said:
I guess I should have reworded it. At that time, MOST of the time if you bought lower power, that was a downgrade, even if the advertisements said otherwise. I have no idea what I could have had in the unlimited money range. Keep in mind the price range of the equipment similar to what I mentioned. Just the best I could afford, buying mostly used.
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I certainly have never been a member of the unlimited money range or even close.
@ 20 years ago there were a number of quality amplifiers at very affordable prices, those same amps now are fetching a lot more (and are more than I'm willing to spend on something that needs a complete rebuild).
 
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