Superampman
AK Member
It takes some time to learn the sound/character of an amp. That's why ABX is not useful in differentiating one from another.
Amplifier Opinion Poll
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Schurkey
Well-Known Member
The real question isn't whether all amps sound alike. Of course they do not. That was settled by "the Carver Challenge" printed in Stereophile, decades ago. By taking two amplifiers each with characteristic sound quality and topology, then modifying one amp until it's sonically indistinguishable from the reference amplifier, it's settled science that 1) amplifiers can sound different; and 2) the difference isn't magic--and can be eliminated (apparently) to the limit of human hearing resolution given enough time, money, effort, enthusiasm, cleverness and access to R&D and parts choices. The original article, along with afterthoughts, are readily available on the internet. The fact that Carver couldn't/didn't obtain as deep a null in production as he did with the hand-adjusted prototype doesn't disqualify the underlying concept.
Carver called it "Transfer Function", that's as good a term as any.
The harder part would be to determine and list all the items that affect transfer function. It's not just THD, it's the THD spectrum. It's not just the output impedance, it's how the speaker-and-cable impedance modulates the output impedance to change the frequency response. This list could go on and on and on.
The take-away is that amps sound different, but the reason(s) they do are science- (engineering-) based and not a result of Tweaker Insanity where tripling the price of the product, wiping it with Armor-All, and putting the Tice brand on it somehow makes it "better".
Carver called it "Transfer Function", that's as good a term as any.
The harder part would be to determine and list all the items that affect transfer function. It's not just THD, it's the THD spectrum. It's not just the output impedance, it's how the speaker-and-cable impedance modulates the output impedance to change the frequency response. This list could go on and on and on.
The take-away is that amps sound different, but the reason(s) they do are science- (engineering-) based and not a result of Tweaker Insanity where tripling the price of the product, wiping it with Armor-All, and putting the Tice brand on it somehow makes it "better".
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I am not sure I agree with that. In fact, I know that I do not. I had an Adcom GFA 545 and an Adcom GFA 535, both Nelson Pass designed. Yet, they sounded very different through the same pre-amp.
Any difference is going to be a nuance. Obviously a piano isn't going to sound like a sax but if you sit and listen you will likely tell a difference in many amplifiers. That is not to say that some are going to just happen to have very similar characteristics but I think it would be rare to find any two different designed amps to sound identical. I have been amazed at the music I had been missing with my old Kenwood before the recap as opposed to afterward. Also the difference was quite easy to hear from my standby amp and my rebuilt Kenwood. I am hearing music I have enjoyed for years in a whole new detail now (thanks Echowars!).
Bill Stevens
Active Member
I opted for the need more information choice. I have been involved in double blind tests where a statistically significant difference could not be established, but in others where the difference between two amps could be distinguished reliably and consistently. So my answer is that it depends on the two amps being compared. Too, it is fair to say that the differences between two amplifiers of good quality and low distortion, being operated within their capabilities are not going to be great. It will take an attentive and critical listener to discern the subtle differences. Another factor is going to depend on the individual listener. Some listeners are going to hear better than others, or have greater attention spans, or be more interested in detecting subtle shadings and details, whereas others have less patience or simply find the exercise tedious. A lot of what any given person hears is related to how they listen and what cues they perceive.
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Cogito
Well-Known Member
You can tell the difference between speakers without learning the "sound/character", right? Why is it different with electronics?
You either hear a difference or you don't.
Lesterbest
Super Member
Even rookies can tell if there is a difference between spkrs. Electronics is much harder. Ever think that's why there's a plethora of electronics (pet free, smoke free & lightly used of course) for resale.
Cogito
Well-Known Member
Again, if the preamp designed to be neutral and succeeds doing so, why should it sound any AUDIBLY different than another preamp with the same design goal?
Have you looked at response curves for modern gear lately? They are all pretty much ruler flat over the audible spectrum (And well beyond) and harmonic/intermodulation distortions are well below the threshold of hearing. ANY loudspeaker has frequency response variances and distortions that are a magnitude greater than any competently made component. This alone would mask any minute differences these amps/preamps would have.
nj pheonix
Lunatic Member
If you read enough, you find the alleged facts can disagree. That is some articles statements and findings contradict others.
In my own limited experience I've found similar ( though perhaps not exactly spec'd amps sound different ( in my listening space on my speakers). As others have pointed out there are other factors that contribute to the overall presentation. I voted 5 because in my mind they should ( based on the definition of hifi amplification) " wire with gain" if you will.
I could easily have chosen 3. I also don't think you'll see anything representing consensus
Also if allowed you could pick more than one answer in the poll without contradicting your beliefs on the subject
In my own limited experience I've found similar ( though perhaps not exactly spec'd amps sound different ( in my listening space on my speakers). As others have pointed out there are other factors that contribute to the overall presentation. I voted 5 because in my mind they should ( based on the definition of hifi amplification) " wire with gain" if you will.
I could easily have chosen 3. I also don't think you'll see anything representing consensus
Also if allowed you could pick more than one answer in the poll without contradicting your beliefs on the subject
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There are those who can't tell a difference between lossy and lossless. They point fingers at those analogers with there expensive cartridges and laugh. Does that mean that there is no difference? To some it certainly does. Then there are DAC's, and some very expensive. No difference in the sound? Doubt that. Don't get started on cables... Holy war..
But amplifiers, in all their multitude of designs, makes, components etc, caps, tubes of varying characteristics, so long as on paper they have the same power and appear to have "low distortion" (the only criteria for the poll) will always sound identical? To some, yes. I doubt my wife would ever tell the difference, but I could. Of course some amps will be close, at least on part of the frequency range. But never identical unless they are two identical amps. JMHO and YMMV.
But amplifiers, in all their multitude of designs, makes, components etc, caps, tubes of varying characteristics, so long as on paper they have the same power and appear to have "low distortion" (the only criteria for the poll) will always sound identical? To some, yes. I doubt my wife would ever tell the difference, but I could. Of course some amps will be close, at least on part of the frequency range. But never identical unless they are two identical amps. JMHO and YMMV.
Good analogy. Just as there are those who go through life and never notice the world around them, never really look, there will always be those who don't place importance on the quality of the equipment, but will possibly get their enjoyment only from the music itself and a great amp is less important to them. . I don't fault that.
Tom Bombadil
AK Member
I am not convinced that all SS amps sound the same, however due to some comparisons I ran some years ago, I must admit that they can sound much more alike than I previously believed. A buddy and I set up a double blind comparison of his Classe amp (which cost something like $2500 about 12 years ago) vs an old Rotel RB850 ($300 in the 1980s) and a mid-line Parasound. We ran the comparisons at my place and then his. The rest of the systems were pretty good quality. Speakers were my Von Schweikert towers and his Magneplaner (sic?) 3.6s. We balanced the volume using two SPL meters.
So both of us ran through the tests 4 times each. Rotel vs Classe, Parasound vs Classe in each house.
We both failed all 4 tests. We were both shocked.
I'm not saying this proves there were no differences. I kept feeling like there was some type of difference, but was never able to put my finger on it. I listened for definition, for clarity, for bass definition, for imaging, and at times just closed my eyes to get into the music to listen to how natural and involving it was. And between all 3 amps, I simply couldn't identify a difference.
I later ran the same comparison between an Audio Alchemy OM-150 vs a $4000 Krell. The AA was supposedly warmer, more tube'ish, a bit slower paced, with less bass definition according to reviewers. But again, I could not discern any difference at all. I ran that comparison each night for a week. Using my very favorite CDs. When I knew which amp was which, I always felt I could hear differences. Consistent, obvious differences. But as soon as I flipped into the double blind comparison, all of those differences just magically disappeared.
So both of us ran through the tests 4 times each. Rotel vs Classe, Parasound vs Classe in each house.
We both failed all 4 tests. We were both shocked.
I'm not saying this proves there were no differences. I kept feeling like there was some type of difference, but was never able to put my finger on it. I listened for definition, for clarity, for bass definition, for imaging, and at times just closed my eyes to get into the music to listen to how natural and involving it was. And between all 3 amps, I simply couldn't identify a difference.
I later ran the same comparison between an Audio Alchemy OM-150 vs a $4000 Krell. The AA was supposedly warmer, more tube'ish, a bit slower paced, with less bass definition according to reviewers. But again, I could not discern any difference at all. I ran that comparison each night for a week. Using my very favorite CDs. When I knew which amp was which, I always felt I could hear differences. Consistent, obvious differences. But as soon as I flipped into the double blind comparison, all of those differences just magically disappeared.
Superampman
AK Member
Way more distortion/FR differences among speakers.
Interesting.
What music did you use for comparison? Was it something very familiar? Very familiar tracks that I have listened to a lot recently is where I have been able to tell the difference with amps and think I would stand the best chance of passing an AB test. However I have not tried this sort of test before.
Another thing that comes to mind on the test was this: Were you trying to discern which amp was driving, or just tell if there is a difference? I think while the two issues seem to be the same, I don't believe they are. Simply realizing a difference (back to our poll) is easier to tell than blindly telling which amp is driving IMO.
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IMHO, this is a myth. The conclusions derived/contrive from these attempts can't be generalized in any objective manner. The subjects were not drawn at random, yada, yada. Show me a break down on the methodology of any one these tests, and I'll explain why it's not valid.
The differences are subtle, and most people don't care. That much is true. Valid and unquestioned scientific proof doesn't exist, though.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
Varietal, maybe. Country, area, and year? I've never seen one do it without glancing at the bottle first.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
That the majority of the population can't distinguish one good amplifier from another?
That borders on self-evident, doesn't it?
Aren't you agreeing with 62caddy, here?
Subtle differences, in the ears of the apathetic, could easily be no perceived difference at all.
This is so true, in my opinion. Yet in the end, does, does it really matter if one cannot tell the difference between "lossy" and "lossless" as the whole point of our hobby is actually, in many ways, self-gratification (music pleasing to the listener). Perhaps a better methodology would be to meter the level of snobbery between enthusiasts. You have the "analogers with their expensive cartridges" versus other folks, finally down to a spectrum (like many of my students) who have MP3s on their phones and hideous sounding "Beats" headphones at best. And yet, members of all three groups, I am absolutely certain, would agree that a given piece of music sounds different on each of the respective systems (being powered by a $20,000 tube amplifier and pre-amp combination, a quality integrated amplifier, or the headphone amplifier of a multipurpose cellphone).
Now let us be honest and open here: Who is to say, with ordained finality, which system more faithfully reproduced the piece of music as we are asking for subjective opinion? Even if we would time-warp ourselves back to the recording studio and listen to the master tapes directly after they were recorded with the with the artists themselves in the room, each individual (including the performance artist and sound engineer) would hear the recording differently. The assumption that is made, is that the higher end systems more faithfully reproduce the given music. Is that really true due to the subjective nature argument? Thus, in the end, at the very best, we can only say, I can hear a difference between one system and another (or a cellphone for that matter). Personally (hopefully not to unleash the holy war you eluded to), I can hear a difference between the cheapest possible interconnects and my homemade ones (high quality co-ax cable with RCA fittings) generally. Then again, over the short runs that I use, I might just be imagining a difference when none exists and all is just really down to subjective preference, just as it is with the performance of our various individual systems.
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