Anti-vibration obsession - why amps?

[Tangent]

Gee, I said that the bubble wrap changed the tonal difference. Didn't say that it was good or bad. I also experimented with an old keyboard wrist pad (cut up) and other things like cork, etc. The whole point is that I was willing to experiment with stuff lying around the house (and some stuff almost ready for the garbage). My mind was not closed.

I have settled on home made roller blocks - with chrome ball bearings and drawer pulls.

Having a rigid support makes it a coupler. It couples the amp to the shelf. Why? To drain the vibrations from the chassis to the shelf.

Isolation ummm.... isolated the component from the shelf.

Both have different effects on the sound.

 

[beerdraft]

Now that's funny! I can tell youabout vibration and my racks taking care of all that and more from what I understand. If I fell onto hard times and had to down-size my system. My REX pre, Esoteric cdp, and BAT mono blocks would all be on the trading block prior to the racks. The only thing I'm not sure about going before racks would be the speakers. I would rather step down on pre or any other component to save money and achieve maximum performance out of that pre than go back to listening to the rex with nothing helping it to perform properly, ect....

 

[dokblues]

Well I`m just a simple old hack! But I tried and stuck with a Very simple product everyone seems to call my Smores . I believe they were originally posted by one of the guy`s here :scratch2:. Anyway these little buggers seem to work well. And I just like to sit and listen to the Music!!

http://shop3.mailordercentral.com/supersoundproofing/prodinfo.asp?number=09-00002-3

 

[beerdraft]

Well I`m just a simple old hack! But I tried and stuck with a Very simple product everyone seems to call my Smores . I believe they were originally posted by one of the guy`s here :scratch2:. Anyway these little buggers seem to work well. And I just like to sit and listen to the Music!!

http://shop3.mailordercentral.com/supersoundproofing/prodinfo.asp?number=09-00002-3

I used them under my Mc2301's with very good results. I didn't find them helping or hurting anything else. I got the feeling they were better for heavy stuff;

 

[VinylRob]

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The idea of isolation of any piece of gear from vibration should also include "sinking" the gear. Dissipating vibration from the body or cabinet of the component is in order as well. In other words, draw it away and transfer physical energy into dissipated heat energy. Tweaks like some of the well engineered platforms do a remarkable job and are clearly audible.

If it moves your ear it's also having an effect on everything else that is in the room!

Happy Listening!

 

[Brett]

If it moves your ear it's also having an effect on everything else that is in the room!

Nope. What's the weight of your eardrum and associated bits, vs say a Krell KSA50?

Vibration for SS amps that are well designed is not an issue. For 2 decades plus I test ALL of my own gear and the stuff I have repaired by watching the output on a CRO and striking the chassis with a rubber mallet, a much larger broadband force than air can introduce.

 

[VinylRob]

Nope. What's the weight of your eardrum and associated bits, vs say a Krell KSA50?

Vibration for SS amps that are well designed is not an issue. For 2 decades plus I test ALL of my own gear and the stuff I have repaired by watching the output on a CRO and striking the chassis with a rubber mallet, a much larger broadband force than air can introduce.

So.. Brett, from you're highly sophisticated science and obvious talents in weights and measures, and having all the considerations of acoustic and vibrational sciences at your beck and call, it seems just plausible that maybe your gear and/or rubber mallet may have missed something. I can only imagine what a "well designed" piece of equipment is as almost every single piece of gear I have encountered (and listened with) had issues with vibration tuning and/or dampening. Air is not the only source of vibration obviously, although I did in fact say eardrum. Funny that you would bring up the KSA as we improved (subjective) the sound of a pair of these old brutes by using wood blocks and spiked amp stands. They were then evaluated with the most highly articulate and accurate test equipment we could possibly find... our ears. And yes, I would concede that those amps weigh more than even my big ears and yet in reality that means relatively nothing. What does baffle me about this hobby though is the level of anal retentive cross examination that tends to sound bad IMHO and inevitably burns my arss and has done little to advance my pleasure of loving music or the gear that gets us there.

Happy Listening!

 

[Tangent]

I can only imagine what a "well designed" piece of equipment is as almost every single piece of gear I have encountered (and listened with) had issues with vibration tuning and/or dampening.

You could be absolutely right about that. I've even heard a $3,000.00 CD player sound better with a little vibration tweak.

Anyone remember the "magic brick"? I never even saw one but you placed it on top of your component and it supposedly made the music sound better.

That's a vibration control. I know a guy who stacks his components to achieve this.

 

[Brett]

So.. Brett, from you're highly sophisticated science and obvious talents in weights and measures, and having all the considerations of acoustic and vibrational sciences at your beck and call, it seems just plausible that maybe your gear and/or rubber mallet may have missed something.

The point of the test was not originally sonics, but to see whether something may have been missed/loose. Not much point finding out when the test gear has gotten to a remote location in the back of a track, vibrated the whole way or a muso on stage after humping the amp to a gig in the usual delicate way then dropping it on stage (or getting drunk and falling over/off it).

Even so, the mallet impact is still larger than any acoustic transmission, and larger than I could ever see even with an amp sitting on top of a sub (not where I'd put one anyway.

Feel free to believe you have made improvements with this stuff, but you'd be much more credible if you showed it with measurements. It's not hard; a good soundcard will measure to >120dB and there is free software out there to do it. Then you could actually track down what the issue might be and fix it at the source rather than looking for external band aid solutions. Needless to say I have done a lot of component testing eg gluing caps to speaker cones and energising the driver broadband and these have not found significant result. I've also done enough blind testing of myself and others not to have much confidence in your subjective results.

They were then evaluated with the most highly articulate and accurate test equipment we could possibly find... our ears.

Hilarious. Our senses are the worst test gear and our brains interpret that and can and are easily deceived by beliefs. Read some Toole and Olive for great resources on this. In the mean time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdvJOF-2mm0

 

[Mr. Lin]

The point of the test was not originally sonics, but to see whether something may have been missed/loose. Not much point finding out when the test gear has gotten to a remote location in the back of a track, vibrated the whole way or a muso on stage after humping the amp to a gig in the usual delicate way then dropping it on stage (or getting drunk and falling over/off it).

Even so, the mallet impact is still larger than any acoustic transmission, and larger than I could ever see even with an amp sitting on top of a sub (not where I'd put one anyway.

Feel free to believe you have made improvements with this stuff, but you'd be much more credible if you showed it with measurements. It's not hard; a good soundcard will measure to >120dB and there is free software out there to do it. Then you could actually track down what the issue might be and fix it at the source rather than looking for external band aid solutions. Needless to say I have done a lot of component testing eg gluing caps to speaker cones and energising the driver broadband and these have not found significant result. I've also done enough blind testing of myself and others not to have much confidence in your subjective results.

Hilarious. Our senses are the worst test gear and our brains interpret that and can and are easily deceived by beliefs. Read some Toole and Olive for great resources on this. In the mean time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdvJOF-2mm0

You're mallet test doesn't prove anything about the problem of vibration affecting solid state electronics because the source of the vibration doesn't come from outside the component, it's the electrical current itself.

We've been down this road a hundred times, but many of us are content in enjoying the improvements we know we hear, we don't feel the need to prove everything through scientific method. If you use vibration control and hear an improvement, something is going on.

Which specific equipment is more complex and sensitive than the ears/human brain combination? I think if there really were anything we'd all be listening to audio gear that reproduces live music perfectly.

 

[Brett]

You're mallet test doesn't prove anything about the problem of vibration affecting solid state electronics because the source of the vibration doesn't come from outside the component, it's the electrical current itself.

My mallet test shows that external vibrational influences from vibration either from air or equipment support conducted through it's mounting makes no difference.

What electrical current is making this purported difference? The signal?

We've been down this road a hundred times, but many of us are content in enjoying the improvements we know we hear, we don't feel the need to prove everything through scientific method.

Obviously not, but then it doesn't mean that any perceived difference is anything but imagination.

If you use vibration control and hear an improvement, something is going on.

Yes, imagination, wishful thinking and a need to justify the time effort and expense in doing something that makes no difference.

 

[Tangent]

Obviously not, but then it doesn't mean that any perceived difference is anything but imagination. Yes, imagination, wishful thinking and a need to justify the time effort and expense in doing something that makes no difference.

Hilarious!

Putting rubber feet (cut up old mouse pad) and stacking a component on top of the CD player really, really takes up a lot of time, effort and expense! Gee, I wish I could get those 3 minutes back.... Oh what ever will I do?

And yes, this little experiment of mine did make a difference.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

Brett, In the pursuit of sonic euphoria and consistent with my wants and needs as a human being to pursue what brings me and the folks around me more pleasure, all that matters is that our brains perceive that our ears are hearing a difference that we consistently enjoy better and maybe associate with the sound of real live music. If this were not the case why else would we bother? To prove a point? Pointless, for me.

Science and justification are interesting pursuits, ultimately... not necessary unless you're saving a life or landing the space shuttle (and by the way, saving your own life). This is all about audio as a hobby to hear the music we love more vividly. If it burns inside you to know why, than do what you have to do, why for me is less important than that it does what it does. And you may well sell me my next component or not, because all of your analysis and spec's say you have succeeded and then my fallible senses that are the worst test gear and my brain that interpret that and is so easily deceived by beliefs will decide not to purchase your product.

Prove to me, if you can, with your numbers why a prolonged burn-in of copper or silver wires sweetens the sound of the electric signal flowing though it, why valves sound better than semi-conductors, why CD's don't resolve music like vinyl, why thirty minutes after I fire up my amps music sounds more relaxed, why I can walk into a friends familiar home and in ten-seconds, from the kitchen, tell how long he has been running his Hifi before I got there, every time.

And yes, I enjoy sometimes being deceived as though Miles Davis is truly in my living room.

Happy (Listening)!

 

[AngelRa]

Brett,

It's all depends on where you stand in understanding of science and technology. The higher you get the less you "believe". What for you is obviously a gimmick and an illusion, for others is the magical truth.

Generally people are unaware of their ignorance (self included).

 

[Nikko75]

Brett,

It's all depends on where you stand in understanding of science and technology. The higher you get the less you "believe". What for you is obviously a gimmick and an illusion, for others is the magical truth.

Generally people are unaware of their ignorance (self included).

True, the majority of people who make ill comments aimed at scientific principles are commonly those with limited experience and educational background. I used to believe audio was unmeasurable and that there were hidden factors. I was in for a rude awakening upon attending university. One thing I will not forget was when people say something is unmeasurable, what they are really saying is it was beyond the threshold and capabilities of the equipment the individual had at their disposal, at that time. It should be kept in context and not be referred or implied to be the limit of technology as a whole because the MLSSA measuring equipment audio companies are using doesn't hold a candle to the level of research gear that is available.

My use of amplifier isolation has rendered good results and sonic improvements in my system. It alleviated the slight transformer hum that would take place after several hours of use on my previous stand. At a friends house, wisely designed stands resolved the greatest portion of noise caused by sound traveling down across his hardwood floor. Isolation can offer much if a problem is present.

 

[AngelRa]

Nikko75,

I had a hum problem also. It was with a Conrad Johnson solid state amp monster. The thing needed 2 people to move around and it make the floor hum. The problem was resolved by getting rid of it.

 

[Nikko75]

My problem was interestingly not simple vibration but actual foghorn-like harmonics and resonance. When lifting the amp off the stand, the sound would trail off after almost 300ms, that's some serious resonance. The amp had to be sitting in just the right spot and be running for hours, and I could never hear it through the output, just on the stand surfaces themselves. I've used this stand for years and it never happened until I placed it just right. The cure was carpet underlay foam under the feet of the amp. I've picked out a new sectional stand I think would look nice and maybe this one won't have the problem. If it does, I'll just isolate the amp.

 

[AngelRa]

I have seen this before but in guitars and metal closet doors, but not in an amp.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

My problem was interestingly not simple vibration but actual foghorn-like harmonics and resonance. When lifting the amp off the stand, the sound would trail off after almost 300ms, that's some serious resonance. The amp had to be sitting in just the right spot and be running for hours, and I could never hear it through the output, just on the stand surfaces themselves. I've used this stand for years and it never happened until I placed it just right. The cure was carpet underlay foam under the feet of the amp. I've picked out a new sectional stand I think would look nice and maybe this one won't have the problem. If it does, I'll just isolate the amp.

IMHO this is a perfect example of a condition where isolation is not the whole solution. It appears that dampening sonic energy from an amp whether it is caused by the amp itself, be it noisy transformers or possibly external energy (loudspeakers) sonically loading the amp enclosure and/or its sensitive components. Either way managing by dissipating this energy from the amp seems necessary. Looking just to decouple it from the floor and room is not enough. Have you tried say, putting the amps on maple butcher blocks with spikes or isolation bearings to the floor (decoupling), but with three wood blocks to the chassis of the amp (coupling), not using the amp footers? This will draw the energy into the wood and dissipate it sonically harmless. With some experimentation I think you may be very surprised. Often glued-up maple block has excellent sound qualities and can be found as a non-audiophile supplier for very economical prices. If you were local to me we, I could lend you all the stuff to give it a try. I have used it with great success in my listening room. Currently, I use laminated bamboo (Amazon: cutting boards 18x24x2.25) with equal enjoyment and they're good looking and nicely finished. Some logic and handy work maybe... but, our ears have proven out these solutions, I personally would not even know where to begin with trying to quantify or qualify these phenomena or employ instrumentation to diagnose and cure these ills. Good thing I also use the same ears to enjoy the results...Ah?!

Happy (tweak) Listening!

 

[Tangent]

A spike will dissipate or drain the energy, not isolate the unit.