Any new idler wheel turntables available?

[KentTeffeteller]

For a motor for a large idler, we're looking at something like a Bodine motor or something equally as sturdy. So, that's around $300. Torquey motors are good on idlers. Really solid metal work for the chassis is at least $300-$400. Idlers and the mechanism to superbly high tolerances would be at least another $150. In 1988, the BE idler turntables were $445 without arm for the 2 speed last version of the 12C2 QRK design. In today's world, that broadcast deck made to the same standard reintroduced would easily be $1200-$1500 upwards. Sans tonearm or plinth. So, with a really good plinth pre-built add another $500-$600. Add another $700-$800 minimum for a good Jelco 12" tonearm. And minus cartridge, $3000 is easily spent. This is the last high grade old school idler deck made in the USA by the way. BE last made this deck in 1992. So, here's a little bit of perspective. While this model of deck is very fine, it is not quite competitive with the Garrard 501 or the Saskia in some ways.

 

[dnewma04]

Again, I believe you are making all of your estimates like you were piecing together a turntable by buying the components at retail prices. I could easily spend 3k piecing together TD-124 from a bunch of aftermarket parts at retail prices, but if I had those parts manufactured, I could cut those costs in half. I'm talking about someone manufacturing them, with everything that goes along with that. I'd assume things like wholesale accounts at suppliers, for instance. I guarantee you could produce, sell, and market a Garrard 301 for 3k and still end up with a good margin.

The problem is that there is essentially no market to justify pursuing it for someone who isn't already in the business. So it brings up the question, why don't more manufacturers build old school idlers? My guess, again, is that there is very little professional demand (how many radio stations play records 24/7 or even 1/7?) and that would have been their primary market in the heyday. There is a niche consumer market for 3-6k turntables, but there aren't any options in this price range that I can see. So, why isn't someone filling the demand that you'd expect would be there? My guess is that they feel their are better ways to achieve hi-fi sound, and I'd bet that it's not because they don't have the ability to make a stellar idler.

As far as the motor goes, you can get Bodine's like those used in QRKs, and Russco;s in quantity for a bit over 100.00 if you go outside of the typical retail world. For someone in your world of commercial audio, a bit torquey motor is far more important than in the hi-fi world. Besides, the torque provided by even small Maxon EX motors is impressive, bringing up 30-40lb platters up to speed very quickly.

Besides, I think 3k without a tonearm is far from cheap, it's just the estimate I'd guess based on the costs of materials, machining, etc. Add another 600-2k on a decent tonearm and you are in the realm of the middle high end.

 

[mfrench]

Since we're cobbling numbers together,... This is a recent estimate for a platter and spindle machining for an EMT deck that was missing its platter. Its a project thats been presented at Lencoheaven, by a Belgian gent, who is restoring it. He has the bearing housing, but is missing the spindle and platter; granted its a 16" platter, but its the most recent platter machining project that I'm aware of,....
[quoting Dr. Jeans restoration project]:
He will do this week end. I just know that platter/ spindle remake is *1450 €.

*todays currency conversion rate = USD $1928.6583

 

[mfrench]

Again, I believe you are making all of your estimates like you were piecing together a turntable by buying the components at retail prices. I could easily spend 3k piecing together TD-124 from a bunch of aftermarket parts at retail prices, but if I had those parts manufactured, I could cut those costs in half. I'm talking about someone manufacturing them, with everything that goes along with that. I'd assume things like wholesale accounts at suppliers, for instance. I guarantee you could produce, sell, and market a Garrard 301 for 3k and still end up with a good margin.

The problem is that there is essentially no market to justify pursuing it.

As far as the motor goes, you can get Bodine's like those used in QRKs, and Russco;s in quantity for a bit over 100.00 if you go outside of the typical retail world. For someone in your world of commercial audio, a bit torquey motor is far more important than in the hi-fi world. Besides, the torque provided by even small Maxon EX motors is impressive, bringing up 30-40lb platters up to speed very quickly.

Besides, I think 3k without a tonearm is far from cheap, it's just the estimate I'd guess based on the costs of materials, machining, etc. Add another 600-2k on a decent tonearm and you are in the realm of the middle high end.

But as I see it, you're largely discounting the master machining technicians and engineers wages, R&D, marketing etc., none of which are free or even cheap.

 

[dnewma04]

I'm assuming I (the mfg) am doing the engineering/design and I can only base my costs of machining on quotes I've received for similar work from local machine shops in the SE Mich area. Costs will likely vary in other areas of the country, but I wouldn't anticipate by more than 20-30%. When I see prices like 1000.00 for a bearing, I'd have to get very creative with my materials selection to get that high of prices. I'd be using CerMet, polished to a sub 1 micron finish? Maybe a solid bronze bearing housing with a larger than needed housing?

Or maybe we are just having big discrepancies because of the cost of doing a one off job and a larger quantity? In the example of mfg these things, I'm talking about 20-50 pieces vs possibly 1 piece in your example? That could certainly make for large discrepancy in prices. Copying the Teres bearing for one piece was quoted at 400.00, whereas 20 pieces came out at 150.00 each (including a break-in charge).

 

[mfrench]

I'm assuming I (the mfg) am doing the engineering/design and I can only base my costs of machining on quotes I've received for similar work from local machine shops in the SE Mich area. Costs will likely vary in other areas of the country, but I wouldn't anticipate by more than 20-30%. When I see prices like 1000.00 for a bearing, I'd have to get very creative with my materials selection to get that high of prices. I'd be using CerMet, polished to a sub 1 micron finish? Maybe a solid bronze bearing housing with a larger than needed housing?

Or maybe we are just having big discrepancies because of the cost of doing a one off job and a larger quantity? In the example of mfg these things, I'm talking about 20-50 pieces vs possibly 1 piece in your example? That could certainly make for large discrepancy in prices. Copying the Teres bearing for one piece was quoted at 400.00, whereas 20 pieces came out at 150.00 each (including a break-in charge).

My example is based on a dual EMT DJ console desk with two EMT TT's, both missing the platters and spindles; So, two platters, two spindles.

 

[JohnVF]

The advantage of going to market with a new idler is that nobody else is doing it (besides VPI). How many giant platter belt drives with an unattached motor does the market need?

Not that I think it's necessary to use one to get good sound. But if there isn't demand- create it. A point of differentiation is exactly what you need to create demand.

 

[dnewma04]

And how much did the new platters and spindles cost to machine? I assume you only bought two of each? What sort of materials were used? Did you provide them with the CAD/CAM files they'd need or did they make the drawings or just run them off of a print?

In my example, i provided them with a CAD file in the format they requested, and again, the quotes were for 1 or 20 pieces. If you had just purchased two, I would anticipate prices at least 50% higher, if not 100% higher.

 

[dnewma04]

The advantage of going to market with a new idler is that nobody else is doing it (besides VPI). How many giant platter belt drives with an unattached motor does the market need?

Not that I think it's necessary to use one to get good sound. But if there isn't demand- create it.

If there was demand, someone would fulfill it.

 

[Dandy]

Interesting discussion. I wonder if the prices of TD124s and 301s suggest that there is a demand for new idlers, or just a demand for respected vintage kit? A bit like the prices big name vintage tube gear, when similar amps can be built new for much less?

 

[mfrench]

If there was demand, someone would fulfill it.

There really isn't a giant demand for them. So the R&D pricing is going to be strongly reflected / extended to the fewer units being sold.

This is an example of a $700'ish bearing for a Lenco heavy platter deck. This and the next example represent a complete spindle and housing pairing, with unique bearing design:

this is an example of one nearing closer to the $1k mark:

Then there is the Mirko bearing that runs a mere $350 from eBay:

This example is not his basic bearing, but, it is what I could find that is close to it. This one has a screw on end cap that is not present on the basic bearing. The basic bearing has a removable end cap that is held in place by two or three machine screws. It utilizes the standard Lenco spindle as supplied by the customer, and is literally just the bearing housing.
A Mirko stainless platter runs $1k for a Lenco

The common trait amongst all three bearing examples is hugely long waiting periods to receive the product, with the first two being of nearly unobtanium grade, and a waiting period of nearly a year, minimum, and in several cases close to twice that.

 

[mfrench]

Adding to the bearing thought:
I'm perfectly fine with the stock bearing in my decks. Of the seven idlers that I run, all have stock bearings in them, with one exception to the Presto that I used as an example earlier in the thread. On that one, I did press out the old sintered bronze bushing sleeves, and installed a new pair of sintered sleeves in their place. Other than that, they're stock. The whole expensive bearing thing eludes me.

 

[musichal]

I think that the engineering behind simple devices like turntables is greatly overestimated. With modern motors, you wouldn't have to put in nearly as much effort as they had to back in the 50s dealing with vibration reduction. For any competent engineer, developing a 301 killer shouldn't be terribly difficult.

Material cost of the platter would likely be 150-200 for the aluminum. Balancing is dirt cheap, probably 50.00 if you wanted to exaggerate highly. Modern motors wouldn't have nearly the issues with vibration that the engineers at Garrard had to deal with, so not nearly as much effort would need to put into damping and isolation. The bearing would probably cost about 150.00 in materials and machine time.

I'd be tempted to use a 3 phase motor for best performance.

I'd bet a DIYer outsourcing most of the machining to local shops could come in under 1k. To control it, probably 100-200 worth of electronics.

Just taking a look at the bottom of the 301, I don't see anything that would worry me about attempting to build this

To make something the equivalent of a 301 today, it would certainly have a retail price in the 3k range. Which isn't insignificant by any stretch.

I guarantee you could produce, sell, and market a Garrard 301 for 3k and still end up with a good margin.

The problem is that there is essentially no market to justify pursuing it for someone who isn't already in the business. So it brings up the question, why don't more manufacturers build old school idlers? My guess, again, is that there is very little professional demand (how many radio stations play records 24/7 or even 1/7?) and that would have been their primary market in the heyday.

Besides, I think 3k without a tonearm is far from cheap, it's just the estimate I'd guess based on the costs of materials, machining, etc. Add another 600-2k on a decent tonearm and you are in the realm of the middle high end.

I see your thinking went up in dollars, and I agree. Possibly went from a 301 killer to a 301. Stayed pretty much as fairly easy for any competent engineer, I guess. And your market assessment may well be on point. I only doubt the fairly easy part.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

In my scenario, there will be fewer of them built than when these machines were made in the 1960's and 1970's years when many more of them were made. Tooling up to make the assemblies costs money, fabricating them costs money. Getting quality parts akin to the last idler new in the US I give as an example costs more money due to inflation and the smaller production runs salable now. I am just giving this example earlier as a general guide to what is entailed to remake a classic idler. Some components might be able to be sourced from cheaper vendors and meet specs consistent. This is not cast in stone. Some things might be improved and keep it slightly cheaper or same price.

 

[rcspkramp]

This looks like pretty cool product. $5,500 w/o arm for the "basic" rim drive version.

http://www.ttweights.com/gem_duo_drive_turntables.html

 

[JohnVF]

If there was demand, someone would fulfill it.

Maybe, maybe not. Success often comes after giving people something they didn't know they wanted until you brought it to market. Or until you make a case for why its better than what else is out there. One reason we're getting beat up in the world market right now is precisely because many companies are no longer giving people something new to want. Instead they do 'market research' and ask people what they want. Apple is successful, for example, because they make something before people ask for it. Nobody wanted an iPod. Everybody thought tablets were a waste. There wasn't a demand for either and market research wouldn't have revealed any in a 'risk assessment'. You have to make people want things that are different, but it's easier to make a case for it if nothing else is like it.

Make an idler, make it the best, and say it's the best.

 

[dnewma04]

Maybe they don't think it's best or worth the effort to convince people it is.

 

[dnewma04]

I see your thinking went up in dollars, and I agree. Possibly went from a 301 killer to a 301. Stayed pretty much as fairly easy for any competent engineer, I guess. And your market assessment may well be on point. I only doubt the fairly easy part.

I was talking mfg costs initially, and retail costs later.

 

[JohnVF]

Maybe they don't think it's best or worth the effort to convince people it is.

Maybe so. But if I were starting a TT company I'd base it around something unique, like an Idler or DD, and not yet another large platter belt drive as the market is saturated with different marks of those, and many are very good.

 

[dnewma04]

Adding to the bearing thought:
I'm perfectly fine with the stock bearing in my decks. Of the seven idlers that I run, all have stock bearings in them, with one exception to the Presto that I used as an example earlier in the thread. On that one, I did press out the old sintered bronze bushing sleeves, and installed a new pair of sintered sleeves in their place. Other than that, they're stock. The whole expensive bearing thing eludes me.

Totally agree. I bet the mirko bearing would cost 100-125.00 to make, locally.

To add to uour expensive bearing eluding you comment. Some motor will actually require some friction to perform optimally. It would be possible to make a bearing that is too friction free.