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Any Opinions on KLH 17s compared to vintage EPI m100s?

E

Edison

New Member
Much to my wife's chagrin, I have accumulated a set of both KLH 17s [can be seen here http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ierd-factory-cab-finish.776940/#post-10659112] and the first version of EPI 100s.

I got them both basically for free over the last year.

Last night I went to A/B test them side by side and much to MY CHAGRIN something had happened to one of the KLH tweeters (they had been stored at a friend's for safety).

But in my less than ideal conditions (testing just one of each) I could already tell they had considerably different sounds.

So the question is: If you could pick only one pair refurb. and to keep, which would you choose?

Conditions:
KLHs - One dead tweeter, all re-doped, re-capped (poorly/incorrectly), grills need work, unusual factory painted cabs.
EPIs - Woofer surrounds original and intact but kind of stiff, sound is good (original cap?), cabs ok (one a bit of water swell on bottom), glued grills present but off.
 
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Both sets certainly have their fans (supporters) and both have very solid reputations.

Though I'll suggest from just "being around" her for a while and reading and learning from many here with MUCH more experience and wisdom than me, what's most important is that you find the best set for YOU and YOUR listening tastes.

Good luck! And remember to share the pictures and your journey with us! :beerchug:
 
I've run both.

The KLH MODEL SEVENTEEN are some of the best ever, especially when used with a subwoofer. You'll find that they have a nice full bodied natural richness with a hint of quickness all around. They seem a bit more agile than their larger woofered sisters.

The EPI in a big box (especially a transmission line or MLTL) will have GREAT bass due to favorable TS parameters of their woofer- not many drivers quite like it, but in any configuration, they seem to have a tame midrange compared to their upper mids and treble. Still nice.

Vintage KLH were so crude looking, but great sounding. So warm, full, and natural. I grew up on that sound.
 
The KLH 17 is cheaper to fix up than the EPI 100's. I do not know what your skill level is for doing this kind of work. I would replace all the Caps in the crossover with Solen or Axion Polypropylene caps from partsconnection.com, and redcoat the surrounds. This may fix the tweeter that is out.

The bass output of the EPI is better, by quite a bit. Your wife will probably like the EPI's better.
 
Freddymac2 said:
The KLH 17 is cheaper to fix up than the EPI 100's. I do not know what your skill level is for doing this kind of work. I would replace all the Caps in the crossover with Solen or Axion Polypropylene caps from partsconnection.com, and redcoat the surrounds. This may fix the tweeter that is out.

The bass output of the EPI is better, by quite a bit. Your wife will probably like the EPI's better.
Click to expand...
The Seventeens have been recapped and surrounds sealed, at least that’s how I interpreted the condition list.
The tweeter is most likely blown. You can very carefully remove the aluminum screen and check the very thin vc wires for any breaks. Sometimes it can be soldered back together. sometimes not. Plenty on fleabay if a replacement is needed.
 
GD70 said:
The Seventeens have been recapped and surrounds sealed, at least that’s how I interpreted the condition list.
The tweeter is most likely blown. You can very carefully remove the aluminum screen and check the very thin vc wires for any breaks. Sometimes it can be soldered back together. sometimes not. Plenty on fleabay if a replacement is needed.
Click to expand...
Yes, in the KLHs there appears to be one new cap (on the switch) and the original black & red double cap is there but disconnected and nothing in its place except a wire nut (with probably negligible capacitance ;)). And I think the one tweeter is "blown." It checks fine isolated with an ohm meter (4.1 ohms) but has extremely low volume when connected directly to a source (source: very low base, all treble). I had already peeled the AL screen since I was curious and felt I had nothing to loose even though the ohm meter already told me the VC leads were intact. Even applied a bit of manual excursion to the very stiff cone (hoping to free a temporary jam?) Alas, no. My current theory is that the VC was over-heated and is warped/swollen? Looking locally and online for very cheap replacement since I only want one at this point to decide if I should keep them or not...
 
Edison said:
Yes, in the KLHs there appears to be one new cap (on the switch) and the original black & red double cap is there but disconnected and nothing in its place except a wire nut (with probably negligible capacitance ;)). And I think the one tweeter is "blown." It checks fine isolated with an ohm meter (4.1 ohms) but has extremely low volume when connected directly to a source (source: very low base, all treble). I had already peeled the AL screen since I was curious and felt I had nothing to loose even though the ohm meter already told me the VC leads were intact. Even applied a bit of manual excursion to the very stiff cone (hoping to free a temporary jam?) Alas, no. My current theory is that the VC was over-heated and is warped/swollen? Looking locally and online for very cheap replacement since I only want one at this point to decide if I should keep them or not...
Click to expand...
That black, cheap cap is 2 caps in one package, and should definitely be replaced. Odd it's bypassed.
 
Edison said:
Yes, in the KLHs there appears to be one new cap (on the switch) and the original black & red double cap is there but disconnected and nothing in its place except a wire nut (with probably negligible capacitance ;)). And I think the one tweeter is "blown." It checks fine isolated with an ohm meter (4.1 ohms) but has extremely low volume when connected directly to a source (source: very low base, all treble). I had already peeled the AL screen since I was curious and felt I had nothing to loose even though the ohm meter already told me the VC leads were intact. Even applied a bit of manual excursion to the very stiff cone (hoping to free a temporary jam?) Alas, no. My current theory is that the VC was over-heated and is warped/swollen? Looking locally and online for very cheap replacement since I only want one at this point to decide if I should keep them or not...
Click to expand...

That sounds like a really bad recap job to me you might as well try a proper recap first before going and buying a replacement tweeter as it needs it anyway and see if the tweeter comes back to life. The original caps were two capacitors slapped together in a single form factor a decent redo should look like the renovation below. So really there should be four in there not one random one. Also if they need a redope get the stuff from vintage AR instead of doing some weird mix of gunk.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/renovation-of-my-klh-17s-is-complete-long.102176/
 
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Thank you, everybody, for your great responses!
teebee said:
I've run both.
The KLH MODEL SEVENTEEN are some of the best ever, especially when used with a subwoofer...
The EPI... will have GREAT bass ...
Click to expand...

Freddymac2 said:
The KLH 17 is cheaper to fix up than the EPI 100's...
The bass output of the EPI is better, by quite a bit...
Click to expand...

Even just testing them one at a time,mono-, side-by-side that was what I was hearing: more bass out of the EPIs. And when I found the KLHs I first tested them with my Polk sub-woofer (when the tweeter was fine?!) and although at the time I had no idea what a KLH was, I knew I REALLY liked what I heard!

Which ever set "wins" will be relegated for now to the basement over the ping pong table (no sub-woofer [for now...]) so I was leaning towards the EPIs but I knew the stiff-but-great-sounding butyl surrounds were going to eventually be a greater challenge for me. I still have to work out the economic projections (of both the hardware and the marriage!:D)
 
OutlawSun said:
...you might as well try a proper recap first before going and buying a replacement tweeter... and see if the tweeter comes back to life.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what Mr. Thrifty inside me is hoping for! But I am wondering: How can anything come back to life if completely isolated (just driver with two wires), measures 4 ohms, but produces "no" (very, very, very little) sound? Am I looking at this correctly: A capacitor doesn't amplify anything, it just blocks low frequencies, right?

How does one properly test an isolated driver for function?

(Am I hi-jacking my own thread... should I be starting a new one?:idea:)
 
Edison said:
That's exactly what Mr. Thrifty inside me is hoping for! But I am wondering: How can anything come back to life if completely isolated (just driver with two wires), measures 4 ohms, but produces "no" (very, very, very little) sound? Am I looking at this correctly: A capacitor doesn't amplify anything, it just blocks low frequencies, right?

How does one properly test an isolated driver for function?

(Am I hi-jacking my own thread... should I be starting a new one?:idea:)
Click to expand...
To test individual drivers, connect the wires from the amp directly to the speaker terminals. With the tweeter, before connecting the wires, turn the volume all the way down, then turn up very slowly until you hear sound.
 
If the cap opens your tweeter stops working. Feed a low level signal into it at the tweeter connection or read across it with an OHM meter to see if the coil is shorted or open. The meter should show 4 to 6 ohms, I'd guess. My very first speaker was a set of KLH 17's 40 years ago. I love them too, but a good sub makes them better.
 
Edison said:
That's exactly what Mr. Thrifty inside me is hoping for! But I am wondering: How can anything come back to life if completely isolated (just driver with two wires), measures 4 ohms, but produces "no" (very, very, very little) sound? Am I looking at this correctly: A capacitor doesn't amplify anything, it just blocks low frequencies, right?

How does one properly test an isolated driver for function?

(Am I hi-jacking my own thread... should I be starting a new one?:idea:)
Click to expand...

A capacitor can be used for low or high pass filtering. Seems to me at least if they threw in one cap that wasn't right for the job that you could get a situation where the tweeter isn't getting the signal it should be getting. In the very least it seems like if the tweeter is testing out like it should for proper function and you're still having issues then you should be looking at the suspect recap. Either way it probably should get done right before dropping in a new tweeter. Was the other one redone the same way? Also do you have any pictures?
 
GD70 said:
To test individual drivers, connect the wires from the amp directly to the speaker terminals. With the tweeter, before connecting the wires, turn the volume all the way down, then turn up very slowly until you hear sound.
Click to expand...
That's what I'm doing (with NOTHING else connected to the tweeter terminals at the time). Results in almost no perceivable sound.(= "blown," right?)

OutlawSun said:
...any pictures?
Click to expand...
Edison said:
[can be seen here http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ierd-factory-cab-finish.776940/#post-10659112]
Click to expand...
And:
File_002.jpeg
File_004.jpeg
Note the old "double" caps are present but they were found completely disconnected?! (And remain so.)
 
Edison said:
That's what I'm doing (with NOTHING else connected to the tweeter terminals at the time). Results in almost no perceivable sound.(= "blown," right?)



And:
View attachment 1059273
View attachment 1059274
Note the old "double" caps are present but they were found completely disconnected?! (And remain so.)
Click to expand...
The cap is connected. See the two red wires, they are connected to the tweeter attenuation switch. The black wire is connected to the terminal post.
I highly recommend you replace that cap as well as the 8uf cap.
 
teebee said:
I've run both.

The KLH MODEL SEVENTEEN are some of the best ever, especially when used with a subwoofer.
Freddymac2 said:
My very first speaker was a set of KLH 17's 40 years ago. I love them too, but a good sub makes them better.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I had Seventeens and they were great, but they could not run with my Fives and Sixes, so I sold them. It never occurred to me add a sub woofer, excellent idea to pair with the excellent mid range of the 17!
 
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