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anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

Some aftermarket styli replacement have shanks that are just a bit tight and will require some very firm insertion force. I have a couple of those and I was hesitant about using them. But once inserted they were fine and worked well.

Just make sure you don’t have a 2000z or 2000t (or their clone models like 2008) because they have and require a unique shank that is 1/2 the size of all other blob cartridges. For example, if a 66e/x or 2000e has a 1/8” shank, a 2000z cartridge will have a 1/16” shank.

So to answer your original question, yes you can use one blob cartridge stylus for another with the exception of the 1/2 sized shank 2000z/2000t cartridges or their respective clone models.

The hole size is obviously different and is clearly visible once you have a 2000z cart next to a 2000e model (or any of those clones)

It’s unfortunate that Empire decided to make basically 4 different designs in the same body shape and then decided to give these 4 models (4000d,66,2000, and the small shank 2000z) literally hundreds of different model numbers even though they will fall into one of the 4 families.

What makes it even more confusing is the suffix on some of the models like 2000e vs 2000z makes all of the difference.

But any of the first 3, 4000d, 66, or 2000e models all have the exact same size styli and they all will fit in one another , even if they are very snug or tight.

The biggest difference between any of those ORIGINAL Empire styli is the amount of high frequency response (hf sparkle) that you get when you swap out one for the other. They are voiced differently for different modes. For example a 66 e/x is voiced differently than a 2000e/iii. The 66 has lower inductance and inherently will have more hf response than a higher inductance cart like the 2000e given the same stylus. So Empire voiced each of their designs to be “flat” as possible within the given design and diamond cut.

That’s getting a bit more complex than what your asking about but I thought you might want to know. It’s not something that is to worry about too much because I have swapped out a lot of them and they all perform great and are very enjoyable. Depends more on your setup and hearing abilities as we age.

The biggest difference and most important thing that I’ve run across is the difference between original Empire styli versus modern replacement styli made overseas. They mostly have a different sound to them and in my experience about 70 % of the time they have too much midrange push. Annoyingly so. Some sounded terrible that I returned them. But some sounded good enough to keep and use.

But the original empire styli or ones manufactured back in 1960,70s, or 80s for Empire all sounded as good or better than current aftermarket’s.

Hope this helps.
That's great reference and much appreciate for the follow-up posting!

Never be afraid to experiment, to try this stylus with that body to hear what happens.

Sometimes there are good reasons for mismatching styli and bodies. For instance, if you have a worn but irreplaceable LP with a lot of ticks and clicks, putting a 4000D stylus in a 2000E body will suppress the top octave and make the disc more listenable....
I took your advice on the Duotones. Those sounded like a dream on my 1000 SE/X which is as far as I remember its in the average 500 ohms with the original stylus of .2x.7. I really like this setup only my Dual 701 which is fully rebuilt and perfectly calibrated. This turntable sounds so amazing and it even surpassed my Pioneer PL-518.
 
I have a 2000e iii with the clear stylus and it’s my favorite cart
Just acquired another with the root beer color stylus and it needs heavy tracking,
Is this normal?
Good question... Hope someone chime in... I don't have a good answer for you for I haven't tried tracking above 1.25g yet.
 
They are, but the good news is that still available among the follow-on lineup of styli (the one headed by the 1000ZE/X) are several originals that will fit and work properly in a 888 cartridge body. The trick is to anchor these styli with something like poster putty so they don't rotate on the body. Gary's thevoiceofmusic.com still has stock of the S999TE/X on down. My advice is to get the best one you can afford.
So, it's been a while, but I finally got around to purchasing the s999TE/X stylus from VOM. It should be here next week. The original Empire Stylus still sounds great though. Anyway, having never done this, can someone explain how to apply putty to the cart/stylus so that the stylus won't rotate? Does it just get applied to the sides of the cart? I assume a small amount will work. Any clarification is appreciated.
 
First, if you didn't specify the white 235-SDE, you may get the blue one, which is the S999SE/X. That's because there's a note on Gary's Pfan-235 page saying "only blue". But if he's actually got the white TE/X in stock again, that'd be just great. If that's the case, and you didn't specify a color, Gary may email you asking which 235-SDE you want.

Second, I've always stuck the sticky putty (in, as you say, a small amount) on the insides of the stylus grip "wings", but putting it on the body should work too. Out of sheer curiosity, which 888 body have you got?
 
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First, if you didn't specify the white 235-SDE, you may get the blue one, which is the S999SE/X. That's because there's a note on Gary's Pfan-235 page saying "only blue". But if he's actually got the white TE/X in stock again, that'd be just great. If you didn't specify a color, Gary may email you asking which 235-SDE you want.

Second, I've always stuck the sticky putty (in, as you say, a small amount) on the insides of the stylus grip "wings", but putting it on the body should work too. Out of sheer curiosity, which 888 body have you got?
He has the blue. Will that work????
 
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Yes, the SE/X is just one small step down and will do just fine. The 235s are all interchangeable mechanically and electrically.
Empire 999SE-X specs.jpg Empire 999TE-X specs (in German).jpgSE_X vs TE_X, 1970 ad.jpg

A reminder that Pfanstiehl's "235-SDE" covers not one but three similar yet clearly different styli: the quickly-killed-off yellow 999PE/X, the blue 999SE/X and the white 999TE/X. Why Pfan did that... your guess is as good as mine.
 
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First, if you didn't specify the white 235-SDE, you may get the blue one, which is the S999SE/X. That's because there's a note on Gary's Pfan-235 page saying "only blue". But if he's actually got the white TE/X in stock again, that'd be just great. If you didn't specify a color, Gary may email you asking which 235-SDE you want.

Second, I've always stuck the sticky putty (in, as you say, a small amount) on the insides of the stylus grip "wings", but putting it on the body should work too. Out of sheer curiosity, which 888 body have you got?
So the blue 235-SDE came today and I tried installing it with sitcky putty. The first glitch I hit was how to determine if the stylus is on level with the cart, since it doesn't lock in like the old stylus., and can be moved by hand once installed. For now, I'm eyeballing it level with the head shell front edge. I'm not sure how else to do it. The second glitch, is this cart, with the putty, is heavier than the old one so I'll have to adjust the tracking weight (no big deal). The third glitch was, when pushing the new stylus into the cart, the cart moved, so now an alignment is in order. This cart is on an AR XA table, so I'll have to see which alignment curve will work with an XA
 
Sounds like your XA differs from my old XA (now long gone). But the ideal azimuth adustment would have the cantilever pointing straight down to the record surface when veiwed directly head-on. A mirror with thickness ~equal to a record's placed under the cartridge is helpful-- the canti and its reflection should form a straight vertical line.
 
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I've been on the look out for a nice 66QE/X cartridge and posted in BT. A member offered a 4000XL III which I thought I had read a post indicating a 66 series clone. The DC resistance on his cartridge is 1122 / 1116 which indicates a 2000 series clone.

I've owned quite few 2000 and 66 series cartridges over the years. I've measured DC resistance on 2000 series and have gotten reading in 1100 or 500 ohm range so I suppose same could be true for 66 series. Others experienced similar results?
 
I've been on the look out for a nice 66QE/X cartridge and posted in BT. A member offered a 4000XL III which I thought I had read a post indicating a 66 series clone. The DC resistance on his cartridge is 1122 / 1116 which indicates a 2000 series clone.

I've owned quite few 2000 and 66 series cartridges over the years. I've measured DC resistance on 2000 series and have gotten reading in 1100 or 500 ohm range so I suppose same could be true for 66 series. Others experienced similar results?

You are correct. The 66 series is in the 500 ohm range and the 2000 series is in the 1100 range. I have a plethora, a myriad, a virtual cornucopia of 66 e/x and their clones. I find that the lower their inductance/dc resistance, the added hf sparkle I get. A little more detail. The 4000d series has even lower inductance/resistance and obtains the highest level of hf sparkle and detail.

So if you want that added hf sparkle n detail, look for the lower dc resistance 66 or clone that you can find. The best bang for the buck in my opinion.
 
A successful match depends on which stylus you're going to put into which resistance-flavor body. An aftermarket stylus tends toward brightness. Putting it in a higher-inductance body than originally intended will help tame the excess treble. Example: if you have a bright generic 66 stylus, it's going to sound less bright in a 2000E/I,II,III body, or a body that measures like one. A genuine stylus in a higher-inductance-than-intended body will never sound "analytical" or highlight every tick and pop.

Of course, if you have selectable/variable resistance and/or capacitance loading in your phono stage or even basic tone controls, you have even more ways of making a mismatch work.
 
empire.jpg
I'm hoping this new change in thevoiceofmusic's 232 page indicates availability of two more top-tier 888 styli. If so, good news for those of us with 1965-1971 Empires.

If I'm reading the above correctly, Gary at tVOM appears to have restocked not only the white S888TE but also the long-extinct yellow S888PE, both NOS genuine, and of course he still has the blue S888SE. All his other current 232s should be considered generics, including the pink S888VE. Check with him before you order, just in case I'm misinterpreting this edit of that page. If I'm correct, quantities are likely very limited.
 
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View attachment 3656767
I'm hoping this new change in thevoiceofmusic's 232 page indicates availability of two more top-tier 888 styli. If so, good news for those of us with 1965-1971 Empires.

If I'm reading the above correctly, Gary at tVOM appears to have restocked not only the white S888TE but also the long-extinct yellow S888PE, both NOS genuine, and of course he still has the blue S888SE. All his other 232s should be considered generics, including the pink S888VE. Check with him before you order, just in case I'm misinterpreting this edit of that page. If I'm correct, quantities are likely very limited.
trying to reach him right now for the 4000D III and thank you.
 
Sounds like your XA differs from my old XA (now long gone). But the ideal azimuth adustment would have the cantilever pointing straight down to the record surface when veiwed directly head-on. A mirror with thickness ~equal to a record's placed under the cartridge is helpful-- the canti and its reflection should form a straight vertical line.
so, I got the new cart aligned by using the XA overhang tool and I adjusted the tracking force to 1.5 g, it seems to be working fine now. Thanks for all the help!
 
View attachment 3656767
I'm hoping this new change in thevoiceofmusic's 232 page indicates availability of two more top-tier 888 styli. If so, good news for those of us with 1965-1971 Empires.

If I'm reading the above correctly, Gary at tVOM appears to have restocked not only the white S888TE but also the long-extinct yellow S888PE, both NOS genuine, and of course he still has the blue S888SE. All his other current 232s should be considered generics, including the pink S888VE. Check with him before you order, just in case I'm misinterpreting this edit of that page. If I'm correct, quantities are likely very limited.
I just followed up with VOM and he said "The Empire 4000 series uses Pfanstiehl 239 needles EXCEPT for 239-DET which will not fit."
I have 1 or 2 "239's" in my stash isn't that a bit high conductance?

Besides these will physically slide in. I'm not so sure if these will get close enough to the 4000D/III. I looked at my stash and basically these are all I have and I have duplicates without the flip covers. Some are transparent grey and red.
Initially I was planning to buy an Empire 1000 ZE/X but I havent found the right one. That is the cartridge that I have the correct stylus. Basically a low inductance hyper elliptical stylus. Any takes?
Thank you for the kind follow-ups. R

1766084282030.jpeg

1766084302464.jpeg
 
Gary was maybe thinking of the 440D stylus, which is (for some reason) stuck in the 239 group. It's 238 for the 4000D family styli. But he's right, the 239s (DET exception noted) will all fit and work in a 4000D body, but without the lower effective mass and without the CD-4-capable diamond unless you're lucky enough to find an S440D (239-DQ).

If you have a 4000D/III body, it sure would be nice to have a genuine D/III stylus, or even a 440D. Unfortunately, Gary doesn't have any of those, at least not now.

And dig that crazy spec sheet that calls the 4Dimensional™ line-contact stylus a ".2 mil bi-radial" ! Way to go, Empire.
 
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Gary was maybe thinking of the 440D stylus, which is (for some reason) stuck in the 239 group. It's 238 for the 4000D family styli. But he's right, the 239s (DET exception noted) will all fit and work in a 4000D body, but without the lower effective mass and without the CD-4-capable diamond unless you're lucky enough to find an S440D (239-DQ).

If you have a 4000D/III body, it sure would be nice to have a genuine D/III stylus, or even a 440D. Unfortunately, Gary doesn't have any of those, at least not now.

And dig that crazy spec sheet that calls the 4Dimensional™ line-contact stylus a ".2 mil bi-radial" ! Way to go, Empire.
I have a few 239 that I can mess with for now until I get the real one. One will pop out soon and I'll grab it. Thank you for explaining briefly...
BTW. I had a 2000E/III cartridge that was dead on one side. What was I thinking throwing that away in the trash. I could have used it sliding in and out those premature tight aftermarket stylus.:mad: ...???
 
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BTW. I had a 2000E/III cartridge that was dead on one side. What was I thinking throwing that away in the trash. I could have used it sliding in and out those premature tight aftermarket (sic) stylus.:mad: ...???

You never know, you never know. I had a 2000Z cartridge with just one channel working. Finally, I spent some time with it, with a new liquid batch of D100L, and guess what??? 2 channels!

Sorry that your 2000E/III had a bad channel. It is a nice model.
 
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