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Are Cornwall IV's Too Good?

jdmccall

jdmccall

Super Member
I don't recall my old cornwalls from '85 being so unmerciful to poor recordings. In comparison, my new IV's seem to be a bit on the ruthlessly revealing side. I didn't think so when I first got them but after about seven months, I find myself gravitating to only my better-sounding CD's -which leaves out a lot of good pop, rock and country music. I think the IV's are definitely better speakers in most any objective measure, but maybe they are too good for pop music. What y'all think?
 
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jdmccall said:
I don't recall my old cornwalls from '85 being so unmerciful to poor recordings. In comparison, my new IV's seem to be a bit on the ruthlessly revealing side. I didn't think so when I first got them but after about seven months, I find myself gravitating to only my better-sounding CD's -which leaves out a lot of good pop, rock and country music. I think the IV's are definitely better speakers in most any objective measure, but maybe they are too good for pop music. What y'all think?
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Time to use a EQ maybe than?
 
Really don't want to go that route. For one thing, my integrated doesn't really have any accommodations for one unless I want to only use it with one source. I do have tone controls but I have not used them other than just to see if they work. Maybe I will experiment a bit with them; maybe bring the treble down a smidge. I may toe the speakers in a bit too and see if that helps.
 
Ever go to a concert and though you liked the music, the performance was a bit lackluster?? Did you regret having gone to the show?

Chalk those CD's up to that experience. When it's good, it can be really good.... and when it's not as good, well.... you still liked the music.

I guess I really do have tin ears..... I have some recordings that sound fantastic....and some that are just bad recordings. I'll very much look forward to the good recordings but still listen to the "bad" ones because if I want that experience, that's the only ticket I have to the show.
 
I find tone controls heavy handed and un exact. On really bad, loudly mastered CD's I use the Loki with my Quartets. Usually turning down the 4K pot a smidge takes care of that. It's generally that 3-4k area that sounds 'bright' and has that glare, not so much the upper treble.
 
don't throw the baby out with the bath water! You have raised the bar at the speaker end of the chain, what you got is what you wanted and expected - a better sounding loudspeaker. So now you have a clearer picture of your upstream components and it's time for a better front end (and or other components) and some room treatment. The speakers are just doing their job they are not being ruthless. Junk in junk out. If you only upgrade part of your system you only get part of the improvement. You might also find your new speakers will want a position in the room best suited for them and that may not be where your 85 Cornwall were because you have a new mid horn with different dispersion a different height on the baffle and different polars. Time to rediscover your rig and your set up.
 
moray james said:
don't throw the baby out with the bath water! You have raised the bar at the speaker end of the chain, what you got is what you wanted and expected - a better sounding loudspeaker. So now you have a clearer picture of your upstream components and it's time for a better front end (and or other components) and some room treatment. The speakers are just doing their job they are not being ruthless. Junk in junk out. If you only upgrade part of your system you only get part of the improvement. You might also find your new speakers will want a position in the room best suited for them and that may not be where your 85 Cornwall were because you have a new mid horn with different dispersion a different height on the baffle and different polars. Time to rediscover your rig and your set up.
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You can't fix crappy recordings by changing front end components and if you did you would just be masking the sound with another component which is a step backwards instead of just turning the treble down a little as he suggested. Sure I could just go listen to it in my car which isn't as reveling but that is not what we are trying to accomplish in the home.

Sure he could try other things you suggested but in my experience crappy recordings still sound crappy if I am facing the speakers, had them upside down and backwards or am in a different room.
 
I never suggested that bad recordings could be made to sound good. I said that his new Cornwall were not being ruthless but simply revealing what was being given to them. The suggestion there was that perhaps he could stand to upgrade his rig to the level of his new loudspeakers. If you see an improved front end or preamp or power amp as simply a way to mask the sound well then we don't have much to discuss. I don't now how you got the impression that you did or what your particular issue(s) of your system is/are. I have found over time as my system has improved that I am listening to types of music which I never used to like before and to crappy recording which I never considered worth listening to before. As to the crappy recording well they are still crappy but now I can now enjoy aspects of them which I was not aware of or able to in the past. Another very good example of making a system better is to use balanced one to one power transformers. Your gear is unchanged but the power delivered to it is cleaner than how it was when it came out of the wall. There are a lot of other improvements which can be made without touching the gear but which address room acoustic problems, problems your gear cannot change. Clean up your room sound and it will sound better no matter what equipment changes you do or don't make. I feel the same way about good power cords and cables (I design and make all my own along with parallel power conditioners, speaker stands and component interface devices). There are lots of things which you can learn about and do yourself to effect improvements but there is no substitution for the best front end that you can possibly afford no matter what your choice of source happens to be. Remember that what ever you do not retrieve from your source material is lost to you forever.
 
The old Cornwall II's used a EV T-35 tweeter with a slight roll-off. Later models had a Klipsch tweeter with a metal diaphragm with a better response. Where your new Cornwalls have a slightly elevated high end. So I would just turn down my 10K graphic control a bit on my C-34 Mc pre-amp. I do the same thing from time to time using my XRT 28s which have a slight peak at 12,500 HZ. Unfortunately conventional tone controls for you like me might not be the answer. Another issue might be your Denon's. Some of their models tend to be extra revealing which might have been perfect for the older Cornwalls. Thats why Mac pre-amps with tubes have become so popular as they emphasize lower midrange reenforcing room acoustics of live concert recordings and have less austere presentation of the top two octaves. Maybe its your Denon amp and how it reacts to the impednce curve of your Cornwalls. There are so many possibilities to consider.
 
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I have yet to use my new Cornwall's with solid state since I intended them to be my main speakers for use in my tube room. Since getting them in place, I have had zero complaints with the way they sound. Using a good DAC with my CD player certainly gets me consistent results. Good speakers will give you what you put through them, these Cornwall's really do well with my application and set up. I could see how they could be more revealing than the early versions, but having the built in option to biamp them is really a plus.
 
Well, it's been speaker moving time at my house again. I now have them toe'd in a bunch more and a bit further apart and further back toward the corners. I'd say they are almost toe'd in 45 degrees. It does make the sound in the wing seats much better, but I seldom listen there and nobody else cares.:rolleyes: Center image seems tighter and there is still enough...maybe more than enough top end. Not at all sure this is the final parking spot for the speakers, let alone the final solution for the ear-singeing brightness I get with some recordings.

I first noticed this issue when streaming some ripped-from-CD music. I think this is why it seems worse and/or more noticeable. When listening to CD's, I fix, if necessary, (within the abilities of simple tone controls) whatever problem I hear on the first track and then I'm usually good for the duration of the CD. But when streaming it's all a mix, good and bad. That's how I like to stream. What specifically happened was a Bangles track followed a Beatles track. The Beatles track sounded great. The Bangles had me leaping for the treble control. My goodness I thought my ears were gonna get fried to a crisp before I could get the treble knob turned down!

Amplifier: I haven't had the Denon amp too long and I'd never noticed this problem with the Parasound stuff I had before. But I'm not ready to blame the Denon. I had not been doing any streaming until quite recently either so maybe that's the problem for all I know. Maybe too much digital/solid state for the horns? I'm gonna have to get out the ol' Stereophile Test CD again and check the speaker's response thru the mids and treble and see if I can at least get the corns off the hook.
 
There is nothing wrong with your equipment. If there was, all of your music would sound like crap.
It is all in whatever source you are using to play.
You said it yourself - the Beatles sounded great, the Bangles not.
 
I've had that Bangles CD since probably whenever it came out in the 80's. Man it never has sounded that hot before, though...and I mean "hot" in a bad way; a very bad way! That's why I ask if the C4's are maybe too good for what I listen to; or too good for my gear; not that there is anything wrong with my gear, per se. Or, behind door number three...maybe too much digital "effects from the combo of CD/Ripping/Streaming. Streaming flac files, btw.
 
I did a full-range frequency response measurement today. Interesting and impressive! I measured with my trusty and somewhat crusty old stand-byes, a Stereophile Test CD 2 and analog Radio Shack spl meter. Measured from about a foot or so in front of where my big, fat noggin would normally be while listening to music, and with 0 db being the average level of the 630 and 800 Hz tones (630 was -1db and 800 was +1db), response was pretty much +/-2dB from 40 to 10,000Hz and down 5dB @ 31.5 Hz. That's with the subs engaged and rolling off above 80 Hz; the corns running full-range. There may have been a scoche more deviation at a point or two, but still pretty danged good, in my book, for an untreated room. So I guess the hot treble really was just the recording. The Cornwall IV's are off the hook! I just don't know why I never noticed it before with other speakers.
 
The fact that your new Cornwalls sometimes grate on your nerves isn't unusual or surprising. If your previous speakers never did this, then they probably weren't very accurate. Some people see listening fatigue as an indication that a system is poor or that something is wrong. But REAL live, unamplified music (especially horns, some string instruments, drums..) can cause listening fatigue when endured for too long or too close, so why shouldn't our sound systems do the same from time to time? If a system NEVER causes listening fatigue, then it's probably not very lifelike.

It's also possible that you're so enamored with your new speakers, you're listening to them louder, more often and for longer periods than you did your previous speakers. We all tend to do this when we get new gear.

Remember, humans evolved hearing nothing louder than waterfalls, thunder, wind and the ocean. ..What you're subjecting your hearing to - loud music played for extended periods - really isn't natural for us.
 
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Good points! I guess I want to have an eargasm every time I sit down in front of the stereo. I know that's not realistic. There's too many bad and mediocre recordings out there. It does make me wonder if anyone ever sold their speakers because they were too revealing; in essence, too good!
 
The listener is the one component nobody talks about.

My hearing changes all the time depending on allergies, exposure to industrial noise and any other factor that may cause my ears to be dampened in various frequencies. Some days I just realize that things aren't going to sound great on that day. When my head is clear and I've not been abused by the sounds of the city it all comes back.

Ultimately, we are the weakest link in the audio system.
 
JohnT123 said:
The listener is the one component nobody talks about.

My hearing changes all the time depending on allergies, exposure to industrial noise and any other factor that may cause my ears to be dampened in various frequencies. Some days I just realize that things aren't going to sound great on that day. When my head is clear and I've not been abused by the sounds of the city it all comes back.

Ultimately, we are the weakest link in the audio system.
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Same for me and I just have to shut it off sometimes its so bad.
 
jdmccall said:
I've had that Bangles CD since probably whenever it came out in the 80's. Man it never has sounded that hot before, though...and I mean "hot" in a bad way; a very bad way! That's why I ask if the C4's are maybe too good for what I listen to; or too good for my gear; not that there is anything wrong with my gear, per se. Or, behind door number three...maybe too much digital "effects from the combo of CD/Ripping/Streaming. Streaming flac files, btw.
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Just as an aside, since it seems you are a fan of The Bangles, check out the song “ I’d Love To Kiss The Bangles” by The Saw Doctors, a fun tribute to the ladies and a great list of namechecks. Enjoy your new speakers.
 
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