Are front speaker subwoofers pointless when paired with a dedicated subwoofer?

[DoctorBotany]

I'm newly getting into audio and this is my first post here. I have a 5.1 system set up currently and I have a question about how the subwoofers work with the front bookshelf speakers. I've done research to find an answer but it seems like a pretty obvious question that I can't find a reference to online. From my rudimentary understanding, bookshelf speakers will have a tweeter that handles the highs and an subwoofer that handles the lows. I understand there is a crossover point where the receiver will send bass to the front speakers for their subs to handle, but once it gets low enough it switches to the separate subwoofer. I've also found that a big factor in speaker quality (as mentioned in reviews) is their ability to handle lows.

So finally, here's my question: Am I wasting money on expensive speakers that cost more because of their subwoofers when most of the bass will be diverted from them anyway to go to my powered subwoofer?

I understand that this could be a case-by-case situation, so my followup question is, are there speakers of note that have high quality tweeters and sub-par subwoofers that cost less but would sound better paired with a subwoofer?

Thanks

 

[Drum]

Your bookshelf speakers don't have subwoofers in them. They just have plain woofers. The woofer will still do plenty of work above the 80 hz (or so) crossover. They will usually go up 2,000 hz in a 2 way speaker (1 woofer and 1 tweeter)

Welcome.

 

[Chris Brown]

There are a number of factors at play here.

The subwoofer crossover point is adjustable. 80hz is probably the most common but the bigger the woofers are in your main speakers, the lower you can generally set the subwoofer crossover. In some cases I've set it as low as 40hz with great results. Bass is non-directional, which is why you can get away with only a single subwoofer in many cases. The higher the frequency of the bass however, the more directional it becomes, which is why you don't want that subwoofer crossover too high. In some cases with tiny speakers, the subwoofer crossover is set as high as 120hz which is bad in my opinion.

Midbass is very important. In most cases this is all above the crossover point of the subwoofer, so will be handled entirely by your speakers. This can include things like drum impact (depends on the drum), etc.

"Distributed bass" can come into play if your speakers are also set to handle the subwoofer frequencies (instead of simply being cut-off at the subwoofer crossover frequency). One issue with only using a single subwoofer is that your room has more effect on the bass. Depending on how the sound waves echo around in your room, you might have areas where it seems like you have hardly any bass, and some areas where it seems like you have twice as much bass as you should. With your main woofers contributing to the bass also, it evens things out a bit. Same reason why many use multiple subwoofers.

 

[swechsler]

Hey Doc, more money doesn't only go to better bass, you're also paying for better overall sound. Now, having said that, in some product lines you'll have equivalent tweeters (and sometimes midranges) but with increasingly larger cabinets and woofers (not subwoofers - by definition, a subwoofer is a speaker that produces sounds lower than that of a standard woofer). If you like the sound of a certain speaker and it's flat down to at least 80hz (and plays loud enough - larger woofers usually allow higher sound levels) then you're good, and going with the more expensive speaker probably won't improve things.

 

[donprice]

So finally, here's my question: Am I wasting money on expensive speakers that cost more because of their woofers when most of the bass will be diverted from them anyway to go to my powered subwoofer?

I understand that this could be a case-by-case situation, so my followup question is, are there speakers of note that have high quality tweeters and sub-par woofers that cost less but would sound better paired with a subwoofer?

Thanks

Yes, it could be considered a waste of money to buy big expensive speakers that dig to 30Hz if you are crossing them over at 80Hz. However, big expensive speakers are getting harder to find because the are.....big and expensive . However,as noted above, bigger usually means more efficient which can be really nice when you want to get loud with a modest amp or receiver.

Some speakers for home theater use, where a subwoofer is standard, are specifically designed for high efficiency and don't even try to go below 80 Hz. Lots of DIY designs fall into this category since it is hard to sell a speaker at Best Buy that is missing the thump (even if is for a very good reason).

Good luck!

 

[DoctorBotany]

Thank you everyone who responded, it was all good and helpful information (which is usually rare to receive when posting these newbie questions online).

 

[theotherguy]

hi,
i'm new here and i'm a low budget "audiophile" making the most of the bargains i get but i have something interesting for you guys...
got a pair of MK Sound LCR-750 speakers which are trumpeted as "THX Certified" and all...they are mainly built for front setup, so far so good they sound fantastic whatever amp i'm using BUT...i want more!!
So to better understand what i'm coming from here's my setup:
Living room:
Onkyo TX-NR1010 receiver;
Canton Chrono 509.2 front speakers( bi-amped);
MK Sound LCR-750 center;
Klipsch RB-15 rear;
MK Sound V75 MK2 subwoofer;
This is random setup, again, got the best of the bargains but it sounds AWESOME!
Audition room:
NAD C270 power amplifier:
Yamaha RX-V595 5.1 receiver with A and B front speakers outputs:
Klipsch Reference RF25 bi-amped to Yamaha;
ELAC CL-102 tower speakers for test;
MK Sound LCR-750 front speakers (non bi-ampable, currently connected to NAD's A speakers);
Now funny thing is that the MKs are again awesome but i need bass and what i did was i hooked the B speakers of the NAD to the ELACs' woofers( these can be bi-amped as well);
I'm using the Yamaha as a preamp as i need digital inputs for my sources and the NAD as main amp and everything sounds awesome but i'm thinking of having a pair of subwoofers hooked up to NAD together with the MKs instead of ELACS(which i've listed for sale).
As i can't find dual passive subwoofers anywhere in Australia to be bookshelf and also be able to divide the low frequency from the NAD i'm thinking of building it myself as i have heaps of suitable woofers in pairs( i actually have a pair of JBL 6" woofers used in the JBL Music 1 system).
I will build a box to host them both, i've got the porting holes and i will use a dividing network from a JBL bookshelf speaker pair for each woofer( the box will have R and L input connectors just for the sake of the NAD's B speakers!).
What you guys think?

 

[theotherguy]

I'm newly getting into audio and this is my first post here. I have a 5.1 system set up currently and I have a question about how the subwoofers work with the front bookshelf speakers. I've done research to find an answer but it seems like a pretty obvious question that I can't find a reference to online. From my rudimentary understanding, bookshelf speakers will have a tweeter that handles the highs and an subwoofer that handles the lows. I understand there is a crossover point where the receiver will send bass to the front speakers for their subs to handle, but once it gets low enough it switches to the separate subwoofer. I've also found that a big factor in speaker quality (as mentioned in reviews) is their ability to handle lows.

So finally, here's my question: Am I wasting money on expensive speakers that cost more because of their subwoofers when most of the bass will be diverted from them anyway to go to my powered subwoofer?

I understand that this could be a case-by-case situation, so my followup question is, are there speakers of note that have high quality tweeters and sub-par subwoofers that cost less but would sound better paired with a subwoofer?

Thanks

To start with, every speaker sounds different and even more, the same speaker sounds different in the afternoon comparing to the morning and that is because your ear if fresher in the morning and more tired in the evening...personal experience here.
On the other hand you can have a great sounding system for less money depending on its purpose, if you want a home theater to sound great you NEVER buy packages sold by the "home cinema" stores, you start with a really good receiver then put on some good front speakers( towers or bookshelfs it really doesn't matter, it's all in your taste), then the best subwoofer you can hear for your budget then, another funny thing i noticed...the center doesn't have to be matched with the fronts rather the surrounds/rears...because they work at the same frequency range.
Also, look for a receiver with manual EQ capability and adjustable speaker bandwidth.
After you've set up your ideal home cinema room then you go to audition room...he he, interesting enough?
If they are one and the same room then things change a bit but let's keep it simple...stereo amp (good integrated with digital and analogue inputs, or power amp+preamp with similar) then nice tall 3 way bi-ampable towers and, another tricky step is choosing the right cables( that can be a whole new thread not detailing here).
When you buy the towers make sure they are 3 way that means they've got ( ideally dual) bass woofer, midrange and tweeter ALSO that they can be bi-amped (2 sets of terminals on each speaker, lows and highs)!
Good money can get you great speakers but i won't go overboard( unless you're really rich and can pay $40k for a pair of speakers that not only sound great but can dance too!), for $10k you can have a decent set of speakers.
When you buy speakers, don't try more than two different ones in the same store, go to a different store if you want to try more and rest your ears in between!
Again, all of the above is personal experience with budget gear that i have!