Are there any advantages to less advanced styli?

[sanford12]

I used the DL-103 for years on my Empire 298. Got tired of a manual TT. Picked up A Denon DP30L with the S arm which for that table is said to be better than the straight. Went with the AT-540 micro line. For less than 300 it's an amazing bargain. It pulls more from a record than anything I have used before. All while being a very low noise cart. Very happy with it.

 

[flavio81]

I have 5-6 copies of Kind of Blue. The one original pressing I own was mistreated horribly, full of scratches and scuffs. It is unlistenable with anything other than a conical stylus. (Tried every other shape.) That was a revelation to me, as I was mostly accustomed to my Microline styli being the most quiet on most pressings. Dave

Which cartridge?

 

[SomeGuy86]

The problem is not the stylus. I've had the VM510CB and it's an awesome cartridge for the price.

The problem is that VM5XX and VM7XX cartridges are very sensitive to loading and capacitance. Get them wrong (too high capacitance and input impedance) and the highs are going to be artificially pronounced, and this will increase the amount of 'hiss', 'clicks' and other surface noises. The Shure M91 cartridge has been designed to work with a high input capacitance, which would make any audiotechnica VM5XX/7XX series sound horrible.

Thus, you had the same problem with the 760SLC and 740ML, both of which use essentially the same cartridge internals.

The culprit isn't the stylus tip shape.

While the capacitance indeed may have been an issue back then, I can assure you that it has been taken care of. I switched over to Art DJ PreII preamp (operating in 100pF mode) and I took the liberty of replacing the output cable (going from Audio Technica LP140 & into PreII) with Cordial CFU CC series, 0.3 (meters) long.

So even with the internal (tonearm) wiring, in this configuration the overall capacitance should not exceed 230-240pF which is ever so slightly above the specs for VM series. That being said, I actually "blame" the tracking force for the noise profile and NOT the preamp loading. Because every single Audio Technica cartridge nowadays tracks at around 2.00 grams ... give it or take it. Where on the other hand, Shure tracks at 1/2 of that, ranging from 0.75 (if I'm not mistaking?) to 1.50g at max.

 

[loudnoises]

While the capacitance indeed may have been an issue back then, I can assure you that it has been taken care of. I switched over to Art DJ PreII preamp (operating in 100pF mode) and I took the liberty of replacing the output cable (going from Audio Technica LP140 & into PreII) with Cordial CFU CC series, 0.3 (meters) long.

So even with the internal (tonearm) wiring, in this configuration the overall capacitance should not exceed 230-240pF which is ever so slightly above the specs for VM series. That being said, I actually "blame" the tracking force for the noise profile and NOT the preamp loading. Because every single Audio Technica cartridge nowadays tracks at around 2.00 grams ... give it or take it. Where on the other hand, Shure tracks at 1/2 of that, ranging from 0.75 (if I'm not mistaking?) to 1.50g at max.

Shure had a bunch of stylus tracking weight options, nowadays finding an oem .75g-1.5g stylus will cost you dearly. The 1.5g-3g options are still out there. The 3-5g are plentiful. All on the same carts, same loading abs capacitance demands.

As for the .75-1.25g options, say a prayer, make an animal sacrifice, and maybe sell some gear. And even then, very few arms will track at that .75g without notable sacrifice.

 

[JP]

overall capacitance should not exceed 230-240pF which is ever so slightly above the specs for VM series.

AT has specified 100-200pF for decades even though the majority of their carts have needed less to flatten the response for many, many years. If you want +/-1dB with a VM540/740 with 47k, you need to be around 50pF.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Aside from the expected low frequency resonance stability the results pretty much match my prior Denon ones can you please clarify what is expected.? Do you mean that the high mass tone arm is better or worse for this cartridge? I notice from your plots that the light arm (Denon 30LII?) gives a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SomeGuy86]

Shure had a bunch of stylus tracking weight options, nowadays finding an oem .75g-1.5g stylus will cost you dearly. The 1.5g-3g options are still out there. The 3-5g are plentiful. All on the same carts, same loading abs capacitance demands.

As for the .75-1.25g options, say a prayer, make an animal sacrifice, and maybe sell some gear. And even then, very few arms will track at that .75g without notable sacrifice.

Right... I remember my original Shure M94E from around early 2000s, it was a good performer but unfortunately I was never able to find the original (genuine) replacement so eventually I put it up for sale.


As for the conical M91, I picked up the cheapest Swiss generic replacement for around 30€ and decided to "gamble". Which to be honest really paid off, as I'm successfully tracking that same 91GD at 1.25g even on a heavier S-shaped tonearm, not necessarily suitable for highly compliant Shure. And it really tracks surprisingly good, even on certain points where the grooves are chewed up (damaged in any way) & Audio Technica VM series tend to skip.

I was also genuinely surprised to realize that unlike AT, Shure does not seem to be as resonant. Because there are one or two albums (Moody Blues, A Question of Balance in particular) which really bring out the resonance on the VM series ... Micro-Linear cuts in particular. Where on the other hand Shure went right across the entire side with no resonance, whatsoever. Only goes to show that there are pros and cons for everything *shrug*

AT has specified 100-200pF for decades even though the majority of their carts have needed less to flatten the response for many, many years. If you want +/-1dB with a VM540/740 with 47k, you need to be around 50pF.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Aside from the expected low frequency resonance stability the results pretty much match my prior Denon ones can you please clarify what is expected.? Do you mean that the high mass tone arm is better or worse for this cartridge? I notice from your plots that the light arm (Denon 30LII?) gives a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

50pF?!? As far as I know, that's next to impossible ... even on extremely high-end gear.

Edit
Figured I'd explain more about this particular subject... When I first bought VM carts, I obviously had a loading issue because most of them (530 EN in particular) were just too bright. Shrill-sounding, it REALLY did NOT sound pleasing in any way. But ever since I moved on to PreII my experience with the VM series changed for the better.

Yes, I can hear the audible difference and it really sounds more balanced, dynamic if you wish. Though I still prefer the sound of Micro-Linear 540 and 740 carts, compared to more lacking 510 and 530 which is why 530 usually just "hangs out" on a stand-by, where 540 does all the work. All I'm saying is that Audio Technica carts seem to exhibit more surface noise, regardless of their overall size and cut. And not just the VM series ... I could easily say the same for VM95E, AT-XP3, AT-95EX, AT3600L and just about every other AT cartridge that I have & tried. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly something to keep in mind, whenever I want to keep the background completely "black", without any noise, surface clicks, pops or hisses.

 

[loudnoises]

Right... I remember my original Shure M94E from around early 2000s, it was a good performer but unfortunately I was never able to find the original (genuine) replacement so eventually I put it up for sale.
View attachment 3693417

As for the conical M91, I picked up the cheapest Swiss generic replacement for around 30€ and decided to "gamble". Which to be honest really paid off, as I'm successfully tracking that same 91GD at 1.25g even on a heavier S-shaped tonearm, not necessarily suitable for highly compliant Shure. And it really tracks surprisingly good, even on certain points where the grooves are chewed up (damaged in any way) & Audio Technica VM series tend to skip.

I was also genuinely surprised to realize that unlike AT, Shure does not seem to be as resonant. Because there are one or two albums (Moody Blues, A Question of Balance in particular) which really bring out the resonance on the VM series ... Micro-Linear cuts in particular. Where on the other hand Shure went right across the entire side with no resonance, whatsoever. Only goes to show that there are pros and cons for everything *shrug*


50pF?!? As far as I know, that's next to impossible ... even on extremely high-end gear.

Edit
Figured I'd explain more about this particular subject... When I first bought VM carts, I obviously had a loading issue because most of them (530 EN in particular) were just too bright. Shrill-sounding, it REALLY did NOT sound pleasing in any way. But ever since I moved on to PreII my experience with the VM series changed for the better.

Yes, I can hear the audible difference and it really sounds more balanced, dynamic if you wish. Though I still prefer the sound of Micro-Linear 540 and 740 carts, compared to more lacking 510 and 530 which is why 530 usually just "hangs out" on a stand-by, where 540 does all the work. All I'm saying is that Audio Technica carts seem to exhibit more surface noise, regardless of their overall size and cut. And not just the VM series ... I could easily say the same for VM95E, AT-XP3, AT-95EX, AT3600L and just about every other AT cartridge that I have & tried. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly something to keep in mind, whenever I want to keep the background completely "black", without any noise, surface clicks, pops or hisses.

The only reason we can still find oem shure styli is from the pure volume of production. The later pmount models, I don't think they really made many higher cut styli. You can still find the red grip styli, but i rarely see the fancy cuts. I had good luck running some oddballs, think one was a v15 brushed styli. Brush up of course.

 

[Sleiven]

The only reason to use a conical stylus is that set op is easy and less critical to Azimuth and other alignments. An option for those who cannot or do not want to mess with accurate set up. They will suffer by more distortion and poorer tracking and loss if high frequencies towards the centre. Elliptical a wear faster than conicals, but are an improvement wrt distortion etc, the only really high fidelity stylus type is Microridge and the line variants, that last longer too but are a pain to set up perfectly.

 

[flavio81]

So even with the internal (tonearm) wiring, in this configuration the overall capacitance should not exceed 230-240pF which is ever so slightly above the specs for VM series.

Too high. Check out @JP post above. You need less capacitance, and ideally the ability to increase the loading (i.e. to 32Kohm,etc)

The increased highs of the VM5xx/7xx series are immediately audible in such conditions. I should know, i have the VM540ML installed on one of my TTs.

That being said, I actually "blame" the tracking force for the noise profile and NOT the preamp loading. Because every single Audio Technica cartridge nowadays tracks at around 2.00 grams ... give it or take it. Where on the other hand, Shure tracks at 1/2 of that, ranging from 0.75 (if I'm not mistaking?) to 1.50g at max.

This shouldn't make any difference. If anything, ultralight forces could be not so good for surface noise -- when I used a certain Shure cartridge that tracks at 4g, one of the interesting side effects was even lower surface noise.

 

[SomeGuy86]

Guess you learn something new every day...

Too bad that LP140 does not have a built-in preamp, as I remember someone talking about LP120 & mentioning how the internal preamp was factory fine-tuned to match AT carts & their particular needs. Suggesting that the capacitance & loading are perfectly matched for AT-VM95E. If not anything else, it would serve as a reference point & provide opportunity to compare the two preamps side by side.

 

[maxhifi]

Shure had a bunch of stylus tracking weight options, nowadays finding an oem .75g-1.5g stylus will cost you dearly. The 1.5g-3g options are still out there. The 3-5g are plentiful. All on the same carts, same loading abs capacitance demands.

As for the .75-1.25g options, say a prayer, make an animal sacrifice, and maybe sell some gear. And even then, very few arms will track at that .75g without notable sacrifice.

Any of the P-Mount stuff will track at 1.25g and sometimes can still be found out in the wild. Either that or I just got lucky!

 

[JP]

Guess you learn something new every day...

Too bad that LP140 does not have a built-in preamp, as I remember someone talking about LP120 & mentioning how the internal preamp was factory fine-tuned to match AT carts & their particular needs. Suggesting that the capacitance & loading are perfectly matched for AT-VM95E. If not anything else, it would serve as a reference point & provide opportunity to compare the two preamps side by side.

VM95 are different, 2-coil generator design that does well with a bit higher C.

 

[SomeGuy86]

VM95 are different, 2-coil generator design that does well with a bit higher C.

Okay, but now I'm confused. This whole train of thoughts originated from the initial fact, where AT cartridges are picking up more surface noise than Shure ... am I right?

Therefore, if VM95 (including XP3, original AT95E and AT3600L) are less prone to capacitance issue, how come they're STILL picking up more or less the same amount of surface noise as VM510 CB and VM 530 EN? Especially when compared to Shure...

 

[Vlad Soare]

AT has specified 100-200pF for decades even though the majority of their carts have needed less to flatten the response for many, many years. If you want +/-1dB with a VM540/740 with 47k, you need to be around 50pF.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

Aside from the expected low frequency resonance stability the results pretty much match my prior Denon ones can you please clarify what is expected.? Do you mean that the high mass tone arm is better or worse for this cartridge? I notice from your plots that the light arm (Denon 30LII?) gives a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

How do you achieve 50pF? That looks impossible.

 

[SomeGuy86]

How do you achieve 50pF? That looks impossible.

I'm going to assume & say "under the controlled environment". While it should be possible to achieve 50pF in a sound "laboratory" using more specialized gear, it's next to impossible for every-day applications.

From my experience, by the time signal travels through the cartridge & into the tonearm wiring, goes into RCA receptacle and through the output cable it's already probably going to exceed those 50pF.

 

[krautmaster]

While the capacitance indeed may have been an issue back then, I can assure you that it has been taken care of. I switched over to Art DJ PreII preamp (operating in 100pF mode) and I took the liberty of replacing the output cable (going from Audio Technica LP140 & into PreII) with Cordial CFU CC series, 0.3 (meters) long.

So even with the internal (tonearm) wiring, in this configuration the overall capacitance should not exceed 230-240pF which is ever so slightly above the specs for VM series. That being said, I actually "blame" the tracking force for the noise profile and NOT the preamp loading. Because every single Audio Technica cartridge nowadays tracks at around 2.00 grams ... give it or take it. Where on the other hand, Shure tracks at 1/2 of that, ranging from 0.75 (if I'm not mistaking?) to 1.50g at max.

230pF is still way too high for any AT cartridge, if you can get the capacitance down around 100pF they sound much better- the bright top end is tamed. I use Bluejeans LC-1 cables with a capacitance of only 11pF per foot and Schiit phono amps with only 50pF built in load, so that I end up with about 85pF plus whatever the tonearm wiring has, which can't be more than 20-25pF. I'm using AT-VM740xML on my 1300G, 740ML on my 1200GR2, and an 540ML on my Rega based acrylic table. I also use an Ortofon Concorde Music Bronze cart (fine line contact stylus) that can take up to 300pF, but it also sounds better with the capacitance down as low as possible.

 

[ddarch]

Which cartridge?

Shure m44

 

[EWarrior]

230pF is still way too high for any AT cartridge, if you can get the capacitance down around 100pF they sound much better- the bright top end is tamed.

My VM95ML is fine at 270pF

 

[Ken Boyd]

Guess you learn something new every day...

Too bad that LP140 does not have a built-in preamp, as I remember someone talking about LP120 & mentioning how the internal preamp was factory fine-tuned to match AT carts & their particular needs. Suggesting that the capacitance & loading are perfectly matched for AT-VM95E. If not anything else, it would serve as a reference point & provide opportunity to compare the two preamps side by side.

I doubt the built in preamp is much to miss at that price point. Your far better off with a better phono amp and loading it correct.

 

[JP]

Okay, but now I'm confused. This whole train of thoughts originated from the initial fact, where AT cartridges are picking up more surface noise than Shure ... am I right?

Therefore, if VM95 (including XP3, original AT95E and AT3600L) are less prone to capacitance issue, how come they're STILL picking up more or less the same amount of surface noise as VM510 CB and VM 530 EN? Especially when compared to Shure...

I was only commenting on the load assumptions. If a cart has an HF peak it can make said noise more apparent, but that’s not necessarily the only contributor.

How do you achieve 50pF? That looks impossible.

Phono stage behind the plinth, about 6” of wire out of the arm, balanced, and very low input and stray capacitance on the phono stage. 55pF is the measured minimum capacitance I can do with that setup, and that’s my every day rig.