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AT Cart Upgrade...

hotrodman21

Active Member
Good Afternoon all,

I am looking to upgrade my new cart from a conical stylus, to something better. I have an Audio Technica, CN5625AL...

I finally have it aligned correctly, as there's no distortion at the end of the record at all, but the sibilance is killing me. Also, to any Lightfoot fans out there, every single one of my Lightfoot albums seem like they have distortion, not on the guitar, or anything else, but on the vocal... It sounds a little less clear than my Compact Disc counterparts. It's a bit annoying, as they are a favorite of mine... They are all pretty new, especially the audiophile pressing (brand new) of Gord's Gold I just bought...

Any help would be greatly appreciated! I'm looking for a better stylus than the one that came with it...

Thanks,

Brandon
 
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Sorry it took so long to reply..

To answer questions... My turntable is a Pioneer PL-50; I am also a broke college student, so I would like to keep it fairly cheap. This is also my first Eliptical stylus, so, I would like a cheaper one... You guys know a lot more than I do between a good cheap stylus, and a bad cheap stylus. So I trust you more than I do myself...
I am currently running at 2.12g. The recommended is 1.5-2.5 Grams...

Thank you for your help!

Brandon
 
Hi, if I read the specifics well from AT, you can run the cart from 1,5 to 3,0 gr. In my experience (but it's not mine point of view only :D) it's better to run carts close to the high limit. Try to set up the cart to 2,5 (if not 2,9) and see how it goes.
Consider that it you change significantly the VTF, you should recheck the alignment and the VTA. But maybe with a 0,7 conical you can skip VTA check...
Bye

Luca
 
I've enjoyed the CN5625AL on several different turntables, including a Linn LP12, Stanton STR8-80, Denon DP-300F, and a Rega RP3, but haven't experienced any unusual problem with sibilance. As to tracking force, some online sources say 1.5-3.0, but the literature that came with the cartridge says 1.5-2.5. Your 2.12 grams should be fine, though I generally liked mine best at 2.25 grams; if you haven't experimented going a little higher, especially if the cartridge is still fairly new and not broken in yet, it's worth a shot.

Another possible issue is cable/phonostage capacitance. Do you know what load your cartridge is seeing? I'm no expert in this, but I believe that the higher the picofarads, the lower in frequency and the steeper a response peak might be caused. According to one site I read, sibilance is generally in the 4-10kHz range, and I've seen graphs of different cartridge loading that can create a sizable peak in that region, so possibly you have a mismatch between cartridge needs and the total capacitance of your tonearm/cable wiring plus phono stage input. The recommended range for the CN5625AL is 100-200pF. Your Pioneer PL-50 is an early 1970's model that might not use the lower capacitance cables that later turntables were fitted with, a response to the frequency needs of quadraphonic records, or so I've read. As an example, Shure used to design their cartridges, up to and including 1973's V15 III, to operate best between 400 and 500 pF; 1978's V15 IV was designed to use 200-300pF, and Shure said this change was in response to the lower capacitance wiring most turntables were then being fitted with.
 
Holy Cow! There's a whole lot in that response. I really wish I understood it... I'm so sorry, but could you maybe simplify that just a tad?

(I think) what you're saying, is it may not be the cartridge, but instead, it's the cables from the turntable itself, or maybe the Preamp. Speaking of which, could all of you direct me to a decent preamp... The one I'm using is a $20 Pyle PP999, which, when it's feeling in the mood, goes into a buzzy fit... Not every time I turn on my receiver to play a record does it do this... Maybe 1/5 times it would buzz to the point where it was noticeable... It is hooked to an extension cord though, as the cord they provided is laughably short... Could this be why?
 
One final question... Do Eliptical Styli tear up the grooves as much as people make them out to? People say conical make records last longer... Any truth to this?
 
Time for me to dash off to work, but there is an interesting article called Load the Magnets that explains cartridge loading. It uses a Shure M97xE rather than your CN5625AL, but it might help show how much difference can be created with changes in capacitance. I looked at the specs for your Pyle, but they don't give the input capacitance figure, so, unfortunately, I don't know what either your turntable wiring or phono stage are showing your cartridge with respect to capacitance. As you can see, though, different cartridges are designed to see different things. Your AT is 100-200pF, my Shure is 200-300pF, the Ortofon OM5E says 200-600pF.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html
 
One final question... Do Eliptical Styli tear up the grooves as much as people make them out to? People say conical make records last longer... Any truth to this?

Record wear studies done by Shure show that a small elliptical (e.g., .2 X .7 mil) tracking at 1.5 grams will wear out a record at about the same rate as a .7 mil conical would at 3 grams. Operated at suitable tracking forces, neither shape should damage your records (and mistracking, often caused by trying to track too light, does a lot more damage than tracking a bit heavier).
 
Some thoughts, having used the AT CN5625AL as well-

-Which stylus does it come with? If it has the regular cantilever then according to Audio Technica the tracking force range is 1.5-3g. I used mine closer to the top of that range at 2.5g and didn't have too much trouble with sibilants. However, if your stylus has the black carbon fiber cantilever, though, it's actually the AT3600 variant, and the recommend 1.5-2.5g range is correct, so 2.12 should be OK. Also, rechecking that your turntable is level can also help.
-It's also possible that the new audiophile pressing you have was cut "hotter" for a microline stylus, without regard to whether a less sophisticated cartridge can track it. (I've had this issue with one of the 2014 mono Beatles reissues.) Also, some of those Gordon Lightfoot recordings are sibilant to begin with.
-Regarding things not being clear, I came to the same conclusion that the AT CN5625AL, while great for $20, is a bit rolled-off in the high end and the sound overall is kind of unrefined. While a different stylus can help (on Youtube someone fitted a shibata to it) I think the general quality is inherent of the cartridge body. For a little more money, I found the Shure M35X to be a big improvement in clarity and tracking. In the same price range, the Audio Technica AT-95E and the Ortofon Omega are well regarded here.
-An elliptical stylus does not tear up grooves. A poorly cut, misaligned, mistracking stylus will though. Elliptical styli are reported to be less kind when back-cueing a record, but if you're not a DJ this is a non-issue.
-While I've never used it, I have read more than one review about the Pyle PP999 having issues with buzzing. I have used the Behringer PP400 which is similar in price and had no noise issues at all. For a little more money, a lot people are happy with the ART DJPRE II phono preamp.
 
Another possible issue is cable/phonostage capacitance. Do you know what load your cartridge is seeing? I'm no expert in this, but I believe that the higher the picofarads, the lower in frequency and the steeper a response peak might be caused. According to one site I read, sibilance is generally in the 4-10kHz range, and I've seen graphs of different cartridge loading that can create a sizable peak in that region, so possibly you have a mismatch between cartridge needs and the total capacitance of your tonearm/cable wiring plus phono stage input. The recommended range for the CN5625AL is 100-200pF. Your Pioneer PL-50 is an early 1970's model that might not use the lower capacitance cables that later turntables were fitted with, a response to the frequency needs of quadraphonic records, or so I've read. As an example, Shure used to design their cartridges, up to and including 1973's V15 III, to operate best between 400 and 500 pF; 1978's V15 IV was designed to use 200-300pF, and Shure said this change was in response to the lower capacitance wiring most turntables were then being fitted with.
Really? You go doling out this "advice" to a noob with a cheap AT and a Pyle pre that's hearing sibilance? Absolute unnecessary, overkill, and not at all practical information. On the surface, it might look like you know what you're talking about. But the first rule of effective communication is to understand your audience. SMH.

To the OP -- There are a few things that can cause mis-tracking and distortion. I can tell you my best guess is that your problems will be solved by getting a new stylus. But I'll cover all the bases here (notice that I did NOT mention capacitance loading because it is not applicable to your problem).

Here's what can cause sibilance and/or distortion:

-- Setup issues
-- Dirty stylus
-- Damaged cantilever
-- Damaged or worn stylus tip
-- Bad suspension
-- Tonearm problems

Setup: Typically with a conical stylus like the one on your AT, you don't have to worry as much about alignment (how parallel the stylus is in the groove) but you do have to worry about tracking force and azimuth (more on that below). For tracking force, I assume you have balanced the arm properly (zeroing the weight and re-setting the gauge). Go ahead and try the higher end of the recommended tracking force range and see if it gets any better.

Dirty stylus: Lots of times, a stylus can get lots of gunk built up on it and that will affect tracking. The best way (I've found) to clean heavily gunked-up styli is using a special kind of brush (tight fibers like this one) and a couple drops of liquid, a mix of mostly distilled water with a little bit of alcohol. If you don't have a good stylus brush, see if you have one of those Magic Eraser cleaning sponges around (the white ones with the microfibers). Gently dab the stylus into the sponge and see if your getting detritus left in the sponge when you do.

Damaged cantilever: Make sure your cantilever (the metal tube that the stylus is attached to) isn't bent. Look closely and see if you see any dents or tears in the tube wall. Also check azimuth, the angle of the stylus in the groove. If it looks like the tiny tip of the stylus is pointing left or right, that can cause distortion (here's an exaggerated example). Not that I've seen a stylus (an AT as a matter of fact) where everything looked straight but the tip was glued badly on the cantilever at an angle. Either way, if your azimuth is off or you cantilever is bent or damaged, it's probably best to replace the stylus at that point.

Damaged or worn stylus tip: hard to confirm this without a microscope. If you don't know how old your stylus is, it might be time to just replace it.

Bad suspension: The suspension on a stylus is actually a tiny rubber ring that holds the stylus in place. On AT styli, the suspension is exposed, sitting right next to the plastic housing (you'll see two little angled protrusions sticking up right in front of it). Distortion caused by a bad suspension usually means the suspension has hardened and isn't very pliable. You can *gently* wiggle the cantilever to see if this is the case. It should give without too much resistance. (FYI, when a suspension is too soft or loose, the plastic housing drags the record).

Tonearm problems: Make sure that the armlift piece isn't sitting against the tonearm when the record is playing. That will prevent the proper tracking force from happening. Also, when you're doing the zero balancing for the tracking force, make sure that the arm moves easily up and down and side to side doesn't feel like it's binding anywhere in its travels.

Like I said, you're probably looking at a new stylus. Here's where I shop. eBay will have lost of the 4211-D6 as well. Of course, you could also get another cartridge.
 
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Really? You go doling out this "advice" to a noob with a cheap AT and a Pyle pre that's hearing sibilance? Absolute unnecessary, overkill, and not at all practical information. On the surface, it might look like you know what you're talking about. But the first rule of effective communication is to understand your audience. . .

So nice to have your input. It's good to know that capacitance mismatches can't cause peaks in response that will exacerbate sibilance issues. From an earlier thread, I knew that the OP's CN5625AL was obtained new over this past holiday season, and he had said that it appeared to be properly aligned according to his protractor. Doesn't mean that his stylus and alignment can't need work, or that tonearm issues don't exist, but with his previous thread as a starting point, I was looking for possible reasons why a cartridge that gave me no sibilance issues on a variety of turntables seemed to be having problems for him. Thanks for setting both me and him straight on the issue of capacitance.
 
Of the hundreds of distortion issues I've fixed, 100% of the solutions were related to physical issues in the chain.
 
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