AU-9900 how to replicate loudness switch?

[KeithD]

Since the AU-9900 does not have a loudness switch, I was wondering what setting on the tone controls would replicate what a loudness circuit does? Has anyone tried this on an AU-9900? I can mess around with the triple tone controls and adjust to taste, but just wondering if someone knows the settings that would replicate what a typical loudness switch does? The AU-9900 has three settings for Bass (150, 300, 600 Hz) and Treble (2, 4, 8 kHz) and one for midrange.

 

[Silver Rings]

Both AU-9500 and AU-6500 loudness is +10 db @ 50 Hz, +8 db @ 10 kHz

 

[Sansuiman]

Since the frequency center at which the boost occurs, and the amount of boost in dB at each center, varies by make and model of amp, this isn't a cut and dried question with a simple answer. Per Silver Rings post, the AU-9900 doesn't have the selectable frequency centers needed to simulate the loudness control on the AU-6500 and 9500.

Other models of amp will have the loudness boost points at different centers and probably at a different amount of gain. Best bet would be to research a model of amp or receiver that has a loudness contour you like the sound of, and see if you can replicate that (or at least come close) using the available centers on the AU-9900 based upon those specs.

The other option (horror of horrors) would be to employ a 12 or 14 band EQ as that would likely get you a range of band centers close to what is needed, and of course up to 10 or 12dB of boost can be added with most modern EQ'S. I know equalizers are generally frowned upon now, but that may be your best approach to getting close to a simulated loudness control. Hook it to a tape loop and the tape monitor switch will become a defacto loudness switch once you have set the EQ appropriately.

 

[KeithD]

Thanks Silver Rings and Sansuiman, those are both helpful. Just getting an idea of how much to turn up the bass and treble is helpful. On the 9900 the controls both go up to +10 db. I'll try +10 db @ 150 Hz, +8 db @ 8 kHz and see what it sounds like. The equalizer route would work also. I only have one (Kenwood GE-76), and I bought it just for the pretty meters.

 

[smurfer77]

The tone controls can get you pretty close... just go by taste as you won't be able to replicate closely as the tone controls do not give as broad (in frequency) changes as typical loudness features. And, loudness is tied into the volume pot in most responsible designs so the amount of 'loudness' varies with volume knob position. Just fiddle around and find what floats your boat ... don't go too nuts.

 

[kevzep]

I'll try +10 db @ 150 Hz, +8 db @ 8 kHz and see what it sounds like

Remember there will be a loudness tap of the Volume control normally, so that degree of boost will vary depending on where the volume is.....

 

[KeithD]

Well, those settings didn't do it for me. What sounded the best was +10db @ 600 Hz and 2 kHz. I was getting very little noticeable effect at 150 Hz and 8 kHz. I'm sure it will also vary by speakers.

Seems strange Sansui left off the Loudness feature from this amp. Anyone know why or what the reason might be?

 

[kevzep]

Well, those settings didn't do it for me. What sounded the best was +10db @ 600 Hz and 2 kHz. I was getting very little noticeable effect at 150 Hz and 8 kHz. I'm sure it will also vary by speakers.

Seems strange Sansui left off the Loudness feature from this amp. Anyone know why or what the reason might be?

It will be to do with the slope of the filter too, the filter slopes are next to useless on a lot of amps in the Mid Fi range. Personal taste and speakers play a role in this too.
I'm not surprised that is what worked for you. This is why I worked on a Bass EQ mod for the 999, to make it more useable. I haven't got time to dig that thread up now but its there somewhere, I posted pictures from my FFT analyser to show the before and after as well, its very interesting.

The AU999 does not have a loudness feature either, I never use it any way so it doesn't bother me to not have loudness, my systems are tuned to sound great at the volume they are most used at. But I must admit, when I had a C40 I used to use the variable loudness on that sometimes...



McIntosh had a cool loudness feature on their pre-amps back in the 70's and 80's. I think the last one to have it might have been their C40 pre-amp from the early 1990's, its variable, so you can tweak it exactly the right amount for the level you are listening at, it just gives you options as everyone's taste is a bit different...

 

[KeithD]

Thanks for that information, Kev. That all makes sense. I'll see if I can find your 999 mod, though I'm not planning to modify the 9900. Using the settings I mentioned gives a nice effect. I pretty much use the loudness switch by default on my other equipment as I don't play my music loud. I do like the level selector on the 9900. It gives a much wider range on the volume knob for people who don't play their music loud, like me.

I had a Yamaha 620 for a while that had a variable loudness control. A nice feature, though I did not play with it much.

I'd be nice to have a matching tuner for the 9900, though I don't want to pay more than $100 for one. That certainly leaves out the TU-9900!

 

[Hyperion]

Seems strange Sansui left off the Loudness feature from this amp. Anyone know why or what the reason might be?

The AU-9900 is from the Sansui 'Professional Series', the design ethos of this series was to exclude what were thought to be unnecessary features and frills that were of no interest to 'professional users'. In other words this amplifier and the series it belongs to were too good for a loudness feature to be included, preferring switchable high and low filters instead.

 

[smurfer77]

The AU-9900 is from the Sansui 'Professional Series', the design ethos of this series was to exclude what were thought to be unnecessary features and frills that were of no interest to 'professional users'. In other words this amplifier and the series it belongs to were too good for a loudness feature to be included, preferring switchable high and low filters instead.

I was about to reply something along similar lines, but then thought, geez, it's got a fine looking face for a pro amp and figure it was a 'pro amp' target for home market.... it's just too sexy.

 

[PanheadXR290]

It will be to do with the slope of the filter too, the filter slopes are next to useless on a lot of amps in the Mid Fi range. Personal taste and speakers play a role in this too.
I'm not surprised that is what worked for you. This is why I worked on a Bass EQ mod for the 999, to make it more useable. I haven't got time to dig that thread up now but its there somewhere, I posted pictures from my FFT analyser to show the before and after as well, its very interesting.

The AU999 does not have a loudness feature either, I never use it any way so it doesn't bother me to not have loudness, my systems are tuned to sound great at the volume they are most used at. But I must admit, when I had a C40 I used to use the variable loudness on that sometimes...



McIntosh had a cool loudness feature on their pre-amps back in the 70's and 80's. I think the last one to have it might have been their C40 pre-amp from the early 1990's, its variable, so you can tweak it exactly the right amount for the level you are listening at, it just gives you options as everyone's taste is a bit different...

I think your right, my C-38 i dont use and the C-39 i replaced last year with an MX-120 both had true loudness control, i sorta remember the C-40 being the last with an actual loudness knob , however , my MX-120 has a killer loudness circuit thats accessed by the Trim select feature & i like it alot ,im pretty sure my MX-119 has the same digital loudness feature but id have to dig it out to find out,i just snagged an MX-132 for $550 that should arrive tomorrow,im curious to see if it too has loudness , my C-2500 dose not have loudness & it bums me out , for the life of me i will never understand manufacturers building gear without tone controls & loudness,the people who hate tone controls would never buy Mcintosh to start with so Mcintosh's choice to eleminate loudness really puzzles me.

 

[KeithD]

The AU-9900 is from the Sansui 'Professional Series', the design ethos of this series was to exclude what were thought to be unnecessary features and frills that were of no interest to 'professional users'. In other words this amplifier and the series it belongs to were too good for a loudness feature to be included, preferring switchable high and low filters instead.

Interesting. A quick look at catalogs from that era confirms what you say about the loudness switch on the "high end" amps/pre-amps.

Not quite sure what you mean about the high and low filters. They don't seem to provide a similar function as a loudness switch, since they are cutting off frequencies rather than enhancing them. Did you mean the tone controls or am I missing something?

 

[Hyperion]

They don't seem to provide a similar function as a loudness switch, since they are cutting off frequencies rather than enhancing them. Did you mean the tone controls or am I missing something?

The High and Low filters aren't intended to functionally replace or in any way be a substitute for the Loudness switch. The filters are a much more useful feature, being less distorting, and enhancing the listening experience in a much more subtle way for more 'discerning users' or 'professional users' as Sansui preferred to call them back then.

I must say I am stunned by what appears to be a lack of appreciation of exactly what a loudness switch or control does? And why the very large boost of bass and treble it provides is anathema to purists who want to listen to the most accurate possible rendition of their music or sound. Yes, the loudness contour is supposed to be useful for low level listening because it restores the 'loudness balance' at low levels of listening for the human ear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour However some implementations of the loudness feature pay little attention to Fletcher-Munson and their research and just provide an arbitrary huge amount of boost to bass and treble.

And on top of this there is the misuse of such a feature. How many times have we seen pictures of gear in use, playing at high level with the Loudness switch on, and often with the bass and treble controls maxed out as well?

Remember the description of a 'good amplifier', most often used to describe the sonic character of the Sansui AU-919 - "a piece of wire with gain" - such an amplifier has no need of a loudness control, but a subsonic filter for removing turntable rumble and 'disk warp' effects? - oh yes.

 

[smurfer77]

...
And on top of this there is the misuse of such a feature. How many times have we seen pictures of gear in use, playing at high level with the Loudness switch on, and often with the bass and treble controls maxed out as well?

Remember the description of a 'good amplifier', most often used to describe the sonic character of the Sansui AU-919 - "a piece of wire with gain" - such an amplifier has no need of a loudness control, but a subsonic filter for removing turntable rumble and 'disk warp' effects? - oh yes.

John, to be fair, almost all responsible designs (including most Sansui models) ties the loudness boost into the volume control in such a way that the feature diminished to zero boost as volume is turn up. Arguably it is okay to leave the loudness switch on at all volume knob levels in this case. Of course, the wild card is the speaker efficiency (and human ear response variations) in terms of accounting for the human ear sensing frequency response. BUT, i do totally agree with you people go nuts with EQ and tone controls!

Regarding the AU-919 and similar amps, the human ear still hears low and high frequency poorly at low intensity levels regardless of if the amp has a flat frequency response. In fact, a neutral amp arguable needs a loudness feature more than an amp that has bloated bass (which may account for human ear response at low levels to some extend, and then sound terrible at high levels . [edit: I note in the AU-X11 (another neutral amp) documentary, Sansui even says that they assume owners will have separate EQ devices at this level of gear]

 

[Hyperion]

You're right of course, I re-read my post some time ago and realised that the loudness effect diminishes with increasing volume control position, but decided to leave it and see what happens, as I enjoy having a little rant every now and again.

And also, I do use the tone controls on my AU-919, and on my other amplifiers much more than I used to, but in contrast, and for those in my collection that have it, almost never the loudness switch.

 

[smurfer77]

You're right of course, I re-read my post some time ago and realised that the loudness effect diminishes with increasing volume control position, but decided to leave it and see what happens, as I enjoy having a little rant every now and again.

And also, I do use the tone controls on my AU-919, and on my other amplifiers much more than I used to, but in contrast, and for those in my collection that have it, almost never the loudness switch.

Hah. I know YOU know that. My counter rant was for benefit (?) of others. I almost never use my tone controls or loudness. Not that i am against using them, but I matched with speakers such that it is rarely needed.

 

[KeithD]

The High and Low filters aren't intended to functionally replace or in any way be a substitute for the Loudness switch. The filters are a much more useful feature, being less distorting, and enhancing the listening experience in a much more subtle way for more 'discerning users' or 'professional users' as Sansui preferred to call them back then.

I must say I am stunned by what appears to be a lack of appreciation of exactly what a loudness switch or control does? And why the very large boost of bass and treble it provides is anathema to purists who want to listen to the most accurate possible rendition of their music or sound. Yes, the loudness contour is supposed to be useful for low level listening because it restores the 'loudness balance' at low levels of listening for the human ear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour However some implementations of the loudness feature pay little attention to Fletcher-Munson and their research and just provide an arbitrary huge amount of boost to bass and treble.

And on top of this there is the misuse of such a feature. How many times have we seen pictures of gear in use, playing at high level with the Loudness switch on, and often with the bass and treble controls maxed out as well?

Remember the description of a 'good amplifier', most often used to describe the sonic character of the Sansui AU-919 - "a piece of wire with gain" - such an amplifier has no need of a loudness control, but a subsonic filter for removing turntable rumble and 'disk warp' effects? - oh yes.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I run all of my receivers flat with no adjustment to the tone controls. However, I do use loudness. On my receivers I don't push the volume up past 9 o'clock (less than a watt on the 9090 meters). For me loudness enhances the sound in a positive way to my ears. And that is what it is about, enjoying the music!

 

[Hyperion]

That's fair enough, to each his/her own.

 

[DAnny45acp]

That's exactly what I do with my 9900- my tone Defeat switch is my loudness switch - When I flip to Tone/filter it acts just like a loudness switch that I've come accustom to. "loudness" switch if that's what you want - problem solved.