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Audio Technica MM journey; frankencarts; experiments

Caballo

New Member
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L to R: AT160ML carrier with ATN15 shibata/tapered alu,
AT15Sa carrier with ATN160ML Micro-Line/Gold-plated beryllium rod
AT15SS carrier with AT15SS Super Shibata/beryllium rod



Part I: cartridge reviews

I became interested in the Audio Technica moving magnet cartridge line after using a JVC-branded AT14S that came on a turntable I bought. It was a great cart for the Marantz system I had at the time, but an upgrade to a McIntosh MA6200 revealed sibilance and high-frequency distortion that I couldn't un-hear.

AT14S
2.7mV output
Tapered aluminum cantilever
Nude shibata stylus, square shank
370mH inductance
500Ω DC resistance

Every AT spec sheet at each price point looked much better than competitors' offerings, and being a value-minded person, I could justify the expense of moving up the line. The AT15Sa offered such great clarity, that my "civilian" partner immediately remarked on the difference.

AT15Sa
2.7mV output
Tapered aluminum cantilever
Nude shibata stylus, square shank
370mH inductance
500Ω DC resistance

There's nothing on the spec sheet to suggest where the improvement comes from, but the cantilever on the AT15Sa is thinner down the entire length. It makes sense that a lower moving mass would be able to track higher frequencies better.

I was very happy with the performance of the AT15Sa. However, during a search for replacement styli, I came across a low-use AT15SS. Don't mind if I do.

AT15SS
2.7mV output
Solid beryllium cantilever
Nude "super shibata" stylus, square shank
450mH inductance
500Ω DC resistance

When I first heard the AT15SS, I was immediately struck by the openness of the sound. The soundstage is much, much wider and deeper. It was hard for me to imagine an upgrade to the AT15Sa, but the SS added a new dimension of detail and clarity that I hadn't heard before from an LP. The entire frequency spectrum was represented in great balance with a sense of ease that encouraged me to listen more deeply. My 1952 copy of Masterpieces by Ellington has absolutely no business sounding as lifelike and immediate as it does when heard through this cartridge.

I was sold on beryllium cantilevers forever. There isn't much info on the internet about the Super Shibata, but let me clear up a few misconceptions and say that it's not just the cantilever that makes it "super", but the diamond itself is much, much smaller than the regular Shibata on the AT15Sa.

Wasn't long before I came across a NOS AT160ML. This was from the next evolution of the AT MM series and occupied the top of the line, with an even fancier cantilever and stylus.

AT160ML
5.0mV output
Gold-plated solid beryllium cantilever
Nude Micro-Line stylus, square shank
490mH inductance
790Ω DC resistance

To my surprise, I didn't like this cartridge. No matter how I adjusted various setup parameters, the sound was closed off compared to the AT15SS. Even after a considerable break-in period, high frequencies sounded one-dimensional and dominated the sound. I experimented with different turntable mats (thin leather vs Herbie's), different tonearms (Grace G707, G840f, G860f, SME 3009 II Non-improved), different turntables (TD125 MkI, TD124 MkI), and different tonearm board materials (birch, acrylic) and eventually settled on a combination that tamed the HF somewhat while retaining dynamics and impact. A low-capacitance cable (Monoprice, believe it! -- saw a study somewhere comparing various cable capacitances) was sourced for connection to my amplifier.

This was fine, except when when I swapped the AT15SS into this setup, the AT160ML was blown away again. Soundstage width and depth, clarity, inner detail, and dynamics were all much better.


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Part II: frankencarts
I'm a prototype engineer by trade, and small delicate assemblies have never intimidated me. My experience with the above carts led to these questions:

1. Lower inductance is usually a reliable indicator to cartridge performance due to reduced interaction with capacitance in cabling. However manufacturers do use inductance to tune cartridges' characteristics with regard to stylus assembly resonances. So -- given that the only difference between the AT15Sa and AT15SS bodies is that the AT15Sa has a lower inductance -- would the ATN15SS sound better on a AT15Sa?

2. By that logic, would transplanting the cantilever and stylus from the AT160ML to the round-shank AT15XX carrier allow that incredible stylus spec to live up to its potential? This is interesting because the main difference between the ATN15 and ATN160ML is the stylus profile (size is comparable), and that the ATN160ML cantilever is gold-plated. Both are beryllium, so that's nice for comparison.

3. What should I do with the AT160ML?

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1. Easy enough to swap the AT15SS stylus onto the AT15Sa. There's not much of a difference. There is a vague notion that the AT15Sa/SS is a little lighter on the bass and maybe the subtlest suggestion of more HF extension but not more HF clarity or detail. I'm willing the accept that what I think I'm hearing is actually the result of cognitive bias more than a significant difference there.

2. I carefully transplanted the ATN160ML onto the AT15Sa round shank carrier, taking care to set the proper azimuth and to preload the suspension rubber a bit before tightening down the compliance screw. You can actually change the compliance of these carts a bit by doing this, turning them into a medium-low compliance assembly. This played a bit better with my SME 3009 on warps. I installed the ATN15 (shibata / alu cantilever) onto the AT160ML carrier.

To my surprise, the AT15SS/ATN160ML combo sounded almost identical to the stock AT15SS -- that is, excellent! Gone was the exaggerated HF attack of the AT160ML, and the openness of the AT15SS is carried over with this stylus setup. There is a very slight difference in presentation, with the stock AT15SS being a tiny bit warmer. Clarity and soundstage between the two were about the same.

3. The AT160ML/ATN15 combo also sounded better than the stock AT160ML to my ears, but with this, it's more of a personal preference. Neither had the soundstage I desired, but had decent detail. Everything sounded very good and natural, but the cartridge was not as revealing. It was somewhere between the AT15Sa and AT160ML in character, with the biting attack of the stock AT160ML being tamed by the downgrade in stylus/cantilever.

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Part III - Conclusion and Speculation

There's nothing about the AT15Sa or the AT15SS body that strikes me as particularly out of the ordinary. Inductance and resistance values are where you would expect a decent MM cartridge to be. I was also surprised that the ATN15SS and ATN160ML sounded so similar.

Output voltage should probably be given more credence as an indicator of performance. Maybe it's simply because of increased headroom giving the amp a chance to do what it does best, resulting in a much better soundstage and even-handedness up and down the frequency range. I had thought that the AT160ML's brightness and smaller soundstage were due to high frequency peaking caused by the inductance-capacitance interaction. But the AT15SS and AT160ML bodies are pretty close in capacitance. I would not have expected much a difference in sound from the 160 if using the same stylus.

My long-held belief that effective tip mass is paramount to cartridge performance is also reaffirmed. Both the Super Shibata and MicroLine styli are much tinier than even the regular Shibata. Though their profiles are slightly different, it seems that the sound character is mostly determined by that low mass. Tracking and wear might be a different story between them, but that wasn't my focus here.

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Epilogue

You've probably noticed that I haven't tried the ATN15SS on the AT160ML. The reason for this is that I want to ask you what you think the result will be! Given what I've described above, what do you think we can expect from this combo?
 
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I just bought an original AT-160ml from the Yahoo auctions and will hopefully see it in about a week. I'm thinking I might try putting the stylus on my AT-150mlx. The 150mlx works fine as it is but I thought it might be fun to run it with beryllium. Any thoughts?
 
This would be a good setup to test two factors -- inductance and boron vs beryllium. You wouldn't need to do any surgery as the stylus carriers are the same between them. Did you receive your cart yet? Any notable differences with the AT-150mlx lower inductance body with the ATN-160ML?
 
This would be a good setup to test two factors -- inductance and boron vs beryllium. You wouldn't need to do any surgery as the stylus carriers are the same between them. Did you receive your cart yet? Any notable differences with the AT-150mlx lower inductance body with the ATN-160ML?

It's on the way from Japan and should be here Monday. Then I'll have to dig out my 150mlx and start the test (run one, then the other and then swap styli). I really dig the 150mlx but surface noise could be a tad better. I actually have a 33ptg/ii attached to my turntable and while it's not as flashy as the 150mlx, it's noticeably better on surface noise. To take it and my obsession with beryllium one step further I also just bought an AT-33ml OCC from Japan but it may be a week or so before I see it.

Oh and I'm absolutely with you on tip mass.
 
Caballo: Well, to be exact it wouldn't only be boron vs. beryllium, but also "glue-on mount" vs. "pierced-through mount".

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
First, you HAD me at "frankencart"! Second, this sort of DIY and experimentation is what I enjoy most about this hobby. Your technical capabilities and understanding of the physical and electrical properties in play are far beyond mine, but threads like this are what I crave. Can I ask what "level" in the AT range these carts and styli occupied, and how much do they cost to acquire these days?
 
Caballo: Well, to be exact it wouldn't only be boron vs. beryllium, but also "glue-on mount" vs. "pierced-through mount".

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Oh, that would indeed hamper the 1-to-1 testing I thought was possible. I thought both of these were nude-mounted? Which one is which?
 
After weeks , yes , weeks of research , I decided on the new VM line cartridge from Audio Technica. I purchased the Audio Technica VM 740 ML with the trade mark " Micro Line " stylus and I can't wait to hear it on my Technics SL-D303 direct drive TT. I'm having it professionally mounted to my current headshell and having it measured , weighted and calibrated next Saturday 2-17-18. BTW , I purchased the turntable brand new in 1981 and it has been a great TT , it was just time to purchase a high end cartridge and at $325.00 , it's a good buy. Aluminum alloy cantilever and body with excellent specs and the micro line stylus. I will post a review after my first listen.
 
BTW: My Home Theatre Gear!!
1. LG OLED 55C7P TV ( Just bought it and love it , the colors and the blacks are amazing. OLED is the only way to go.
2. LG UP970 Ultra HD 4K Blue Ray Player ( purchased new )
3. Denon AVR 3300 A/V Receiver ( Purchased new )
4. Klipsch KG4 main's ( purchased brand new in 1988 ) replaced the diaphrams , well worth it . They are amazing Loudspeakers. Anything larger would be a waste.
5. Klipsch SC-1 Center Bought new
6. Klipsch KSW 12 Subwoofer Bought new
7. Bowers & Wilkins Monitor Series Rears Bought New
8. Technics SL-D303 turntable. ( Bought New in 1981 ) with Audio Technica VM 740 ML Cartridge
9. Denon DCM-360 CD Changer Bought new
10. Denon DRM10HR Cassette Deck Bought new
 
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caballo: Well, both sport nudies, but the mounting is a bit different. I.e., if you have a close look at your ATN15SS or ATN160ML, you should see that the beryllium rods are pierced and the shanks of the stones are glue-fixed at the rear ends, with only very little glue showing up on the business side (basically just a tiny rim around the shank, where it protrudes from the hole...). Whereas the boron rod of the ATN150MLX isn't pierced, so that the stone basically just sits on the bevelled area at the front and is fixed to that by quite a bit of glue, which surrounds almost the entire stone. Personally I prefer the former approach - because it not only looks a lot nicer, but would also appear more robust.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
caballo: Well, both sport nudies, but the mounting is a bit different. I.e., if you have a close look at your ATN15SS or ATN160ML, you should see that the beryllium rods are pierced and the shanks of the stones are glue-fixed at the rear ends, with only very little glue showing up on the business side (basically just a tiny rim around the shank, where it protrudes from the hole...). Whereas the boron rod of the ATN150MLX isn't pierced, so that the stone basically just sits on the bevelled area at the front and is fixed to that by quite a bit of glue, which surrounds almost the entire stone. Personally I prefer the former approach - because it not only looks a lot nicer, but would also appear more robust.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

I haven't scoped my 150mlx but my 33ptg/ii most definitely has a clump of glue with the diamond sticking out like a bird's beak. It's actually not very appealing to the eye at that magnification but it sounds pretty!
 
Some closeups of the 160ml stylus...

S20180213_0006.jpg

S20180213_0017.jpg S20180213_0021.jpg

I carefully used a Magic Eraser against the stylus/cantilever but I think the original glue job was a little messy. Either way looks nice and sharp and the cantilever is very straight. Should be a good candidate!
 
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