Audio Technica VM540 ML and Pro-Ject Ultra 500 Phono Pre Amp

[MJW120]

Recently purchased AT VM540 ML and as using a Pro-Ject Utra 500 Pre Amp. The cartridge is MM and I am seeking advice on the appropriate dip switch settings to be used with this combo such as Input impedence/input capacitance, and Gain.
Not sure if this cartridge would be considered high output mm

 

[WaynerN]

Yes, it is an MM. 47K ohm impedance. No other settings required.

 

[patient_ot]

Unless someone owns this specific preamp they're going to have to look at the manual just like you are. A cartridge like this needs around 40dB of gain and you can set the load to 47K because odds are you don't have any other useful settings like 39K or 36K. If there are capacitance settings, I would start with the lowest setting available. If you don't like the sound you get with the stock settings available on the phono preamp, you can use resistor loading plugs to load the cartridge down to 39K or 36K.

I personally use 36K + 100pf at the preamp with a similar cartridge.

Good luck.

 

[rothwellaudio]

I am seeking advice on the appropriate dip switch settings to be used with this combo such as Input impedence/input capacitance, and Gain.

Set the impedance to 47k. The alternatives (10, 100, 1k) are not suitable for mm cartridges.
Set the capacitance by listening. You only have two options, 100pF and 220pF, and either would be fine. There'll be a slight difference to the high frequencies depending on which capacitance load is selected. AT's recommendation is 100-200 pF.
Set the gain to 40dB or 43dB. The other two settings are for LOMC cartridges.

 

[ETI_5000]

Firstly, it is a high output MM. Apart from a very tiny percentage (made in the 1970's and 80's), most MM's are high output, and no Audio-Technica MM's are low output. The standard impedance (resistance) load for all high output stereo MM cartridges is 47k ohms.

As mentioned, 40dB or 43dB are suitable gains to use.

Set the capacitance switch to 100pF - if your turntable output leads are 100pF or less, that will give you the required total capacitance load. A 220pF preamp load is far too high, and that's guaranteed for all Audio-Technica MM's, when you add on the extra capacitance of your turntable leads, which will typically contribute an extra 70pF to 200pF, which needs to be added to the preamp input capacitance.

 

[rothwellaudio]

A 220pF preamp load is far too high...

You give the impression the cartridge won't work into a preamp set to 220pF. It's perfectly safe for the OP to try both settings for capacitance and hear the difference for himself. The high frequency response will change, but not so much as to render one unlistenable.

 

[cgallery]

You give the impression the cartridge won't work into a preamp set to 220pF. It's perfectly safe for the OP to try both settings for capacitance and hear the difference for himself. The high frequency response will change, but not so much as to render one unlistenable.

Indeed, might not even be able to hear it without A/B type switching/listening.

Most people report not being able to hear any difference when switching thr ART DJ capacitance switch.

The "Audio Technica need low capacitance" is waaaay overblown.

 

[patient_ot]

Most people report not being able to hear any difference when switching thr ART DJ capacitance switch.

The "Audio Technica need low capacitance" is waaaay overblown.

All depends on age related hearing ability, downstream equipment, and the records one is playing. The AT cart I have mounted now had a 3.2dB peak at 10K when loaded at 180pf + 47K. I was able to cut that peak down to less than half by loading the cartridge at 36K, and now most of the audible band varies by +/- 1dB or less.

It was also immediately audible to me.

 

[mackat]

All depends on age related hearing ability, downstream equipment, and the records one is playing. The AT cart I have mounted now had a 3.2dB peak at 10K when loaded at 180pf + 47K. I was able to cut that peak down to less than half by loading the cartridge at 36K, and now most of the audible band varies by +/- 1dB or less.

It was also immediately audible to me.

Is this the 540ML?

 

[cgallery]

All depends on age related hearing ability, downstream equipment, and the records one is playing. The AT cart I have mounted now had a 3.2dB peak at 10K when loaded at 180pf + 47K. I was able to cut that peak down to less than half by loading the cartridge at 36K, and now most of the audible band varies by +/- 1dB or less.

It was also immediately audible to me.

Sure, I'm just saying one may not hear much of a difference between 180 and 280pf. When I was trying to figure out the Parks Budgie issue, I ended up measuring a difference between 570pf and 135pf and it amounted to about 2db up in the 10k region. Nowhere near as enormous one would predict for a 435pf difference.

 

[JP]

Sure, I'm just saying one may not hear much of a difference between 180 and 280pf. When I was trying to figure out the Parks Budgie issue, I ended up measuring a difference between 570pf and 135pf and it amounted to about 2db up in the 10k region. Nowhere near as enormous one would predict for a 435pf difference.

What test record and track?

 

[patient_ot]

Is this the 540ML?

150ea body + VMN40ML stylus.

 

[patient_ot]

Sure, I'm just saying one may not hear much of a difference between 180 and 280pf. When I was trying to figure out the Parks Budgie issue, I ended up measuring a difference between 570pf and 135pf and it amounted to about 2db up in the 10k region. Nowhere near as enormous one would predict for a 435pf difference.

Hmm, was that with a pink noise record?

 

[cgallery]

What test record and track?

Hmm, was that with a pink noise record?

This would be the left channel of the HiFi News pink noise. But it doesn't matter much because I'm talking relative values, same cartridge and stylus and wiring, the only change was the capacitance of the preamp.

 

[patient_ot]

This would be the left channel of the HiFi News pink noise. But it doesn't matter much because I'm talking relative values, same cartridge and stylus and wiring, the only change was the capacitance of the preamp.

Was this that preamp with the wrong components that had to be replaced?

 

[cgallery]

Was this that preamp with the wrong components that had to be replaced?

Yep, a component that was added after the design was finish but production started, inadvertently increased Miller capacitance. Removing it returned the unit to the expected 50pf.

 

[JP]

This would be the left channel of the HiFi News pink noise. But it doesn't matter much because I'm talking relative values, same cartridge and stylus and wiring, the only change was the capacitance of the preamp.

I thought that was it as I recognized the glitch at 9k that is in the HFN A3 track. I can't reconcile your plot though as with a cartridge that is principally "flat" to 20k according to TRS-1007 sweep, you should be roughly +4dB by 20k whereas you're rolling off, and even more so with the higher Cl. It looks as if Cl is a lot higher than what is stated, at least the lower number, and/or Rl is closer to 34k than 47k.

 

[cgallery]

I thought that was it as I recognized the glitch at 9k that is in the HFN A3 track. I can't reconcile your plot though as with a cartridge that is principally "flat" to 20k according to TRS-1007 sweep, you should be roughly +4dB by 20k whereas you're rolling off, and even more so with the higher Cl. It looks as if Cl is a lot higher than what is stated, at least the lower number, and/or Rl is closer to 34k than 47k.

View attachment 2521734

You're right, I likely inadvertently had averaging enabled in REW. It likes to turn itself back on. I shouldn't have posted that, it just muddied the waters.

My point remains, though, that the users with phono preamps that have switchable 100/200-pf loading typically report not being able to hear any difference.

And few people know about the capacitance issue on those Budgie preamps, most people are using them with gobs of capacitance and few (if any) are reporting issues. I knew something was wrong as some of my albums sounded off, but it wasn't until I started measuring that I started to figure out what was going on.

It didn't sound nearly as bad as one might expect.

Once again, sorry for creating any confusion.

 

[JP]

You're right, I likely inadvertently had averaging enabled in REW. It likes to turn itself back on. I shouldn't have posted that, it just muddied the waters.

My point remains, though, that the users with phono preamps that have switchable 100/200-pf loading typically report not being able to hear any difference.

And few people know about the capacitance issue on those Budgie preamps, most people are using them with gobs of capacitance and few (if any) are reporting issues. I knew something was wrong as some of my albums sounded off, but it wasn't until I started measuring that I started to figure out what was going on.

It didn't sound nearly as bad as one might expect.

Once again, sorry for creating any confusion.

All approx numbers:

My phono stage only goes to +200pF without me having to monkey with it. 740ML at 350pF is +1dB at 6kHz and about +2.5dB at 11kHz from 150pF. Not egregious, but I do find it readily noticeable.

150MLX is a bit worse being +3dB at 11kHz with 350pF but only about +0.25dB at 6kHz. I haven't measured it but I've seen details from sources I trust that show it at +4dB with 500pF load.

For either the difference between +100pF and +200pF is about 1dB. But at +100pF even with typical low C cable you're already on the wrong side of the equation by a good +1.5dB.

Reference is a factor as well. If you go from a typical MC that is -2-3dB in the midrange to a 740, chances are that's going to be very noticeable. I also noted in the SHF Tone Poet thread that a fair split of folks reported that they couldn't hear the high pitched noise in For Django at all; age isn't kind.

Seems as with all things, it depends.

 

[cgallery]

All approx numbers:

My phono stage only goes to +200pF without me having to monkey with it. 740ML at 350pF is +1dB at 6kHz and about +2.5dB at 11kHz from 150pF. Not egregious, but I do find it readily noticeable.

150MLX is a bit worse being +3dB at 11kHz with 350pF but only about +0.25dB at 6kHz. I haven't measured it but I've seen details from sources I trust that show it at +4dB with 500pF load.

For either the difference between +100pF and +200pF is about 1dB. But at +100pF even with typical low C cable you're already on the wrong side of the equation by a good +1.5dB.

Reference is a factor as well. If you go from a typical MC that is -2-3dB in the midrange to a 740, chances are that's going to be very noticeable. I also noted in the SHF Tone Poet thread that a fair split of folks reported that they couldn't hear the high pitched noise in For Django at all; age isn't kind.

Seems as with all things, it depends.

No doubt.

I seem to have disturbed a hornets nest here.

The context of my original reply was a post advising that 220pf preamp load is way too high, which I just don't believe is necessarily the case.

It seems Audio Technica cartridges will forever be judged in the context of those 400MLa models, known for their somewhat piercing high frequency performance.

I suspect that half or more of Audio Technica cartridges are enjoyed by people with > 100pf preamp loads.

If someone wants a very linear response, that is fine. But to advise that they won't sound great at 220pf I think is doing a disservice.

+1db may sound audiophile career-ending, until we look at the specifications for the RIAA curve itself, the speakers and headphones we use, etc.