Balanced vs unbalanced cables.

[Bob C]

I have never had the opportunity to use balanced cables. Is there a big difference in sound? I use sacd and DVD-A. The unbalanced cable wouldn’t be good for sacd, do I need the 6 individual unbalanced cables for 5.1 music. Any additional info on balanced cables would be appreciated and help me decide if I want to replace the new “Worlds Best Cables” I just upgraded with them.

 

[toddalin]

I don't believe that there are any SACD/DVD-Audio players on the commercial market that use balanced outputs for all 6 channels, so yes, you need six unbalanced cables. Some players also use balanced outputs for the stereo SACD signal (e.g., Oppo), and depending on the rest of your system, this may or may not make a difference. Does your receiver/integrated/preamp even have balanced inputs to take advantage of these outputs?

 

[evsentry3]

Bob,

You're going to get a whole bunch of answers that mix up and confuse the difference between differential equipment and the separate issue of the interconnection of components. You can see it in every thread talking about balanced cabling. The old folklore that if the whole system isn't "truly" and totally balanced then there is no point.

This fails to recognize the opportunity in balanced interconnect to not share audio ground. Instead the conversation immediately goes into the way overblown idea that some devices aren't really 'balanced' and only have XLR connectors. This blurs the fact that both lines don't have to be actively driven to actually be able to have advantages. But the internet science 'facts' are repeated over and over and over.

I've played with some multi-channel music system configuration. A very few preamps have balanced multi-channel inputs if you look enough. But I don't think you can find many sources to feed them. Even single ended analog is getting pretty scarce at this point. So I'm not sure interconnect style is really a big issue. But there is, if you're into music, a lot of multi-channel music available in the digital realm these days. And its fun!

EV3

 

[Bob C]

What brought up the subject was that the Parasound Phono preamp has the balanced outputs and my Mac preamp has XLR ports. Just recently I’ve spent a lot(for me) to upgrade all the cables, new turntable, tt preamp, an upgraded cartridge and over a dozen new albums and sacds. If a pair of reasonable priced XLR cables do sound that much better than the individual rca interconnects, then I may be able to fit a pair in my budget.

 

[swechsler]

This fails to recognize the opportunity in balanced interconnect to not share audio ground. Instead the conversation immediately goes into the way overblown idea that some devices aren't really 'balanced' and only have XLR connectors. This blurs the fact that both lines don't have to be actively driven to actually be able to have advantages. But the internet science 'facts' are repeated over and over and over.

It's my impression (maybe it's one of those "facts") that if you don't have a true balanced component, the only advantage of using balanced over unbalanced interconnects is the opportunity for noise rejection due to the differential signal, and that if you don't have noise issues, you won't hear a difference.

 

[Bob C]

I was just pricing XLR cables on Amazon and they are quite inexpensive, but I’m sure I wasn’t looking at audiophile cables.

 

[Bob C]

It's my impression (maybe it's one of those "facts") that if you don't have a true balanced component, the only advantage of using balanced over unbalanced interconnects is the opportunity for noise rejection due to the differential signal, and that if you don't have noise issues, you won't hear a difference.

I’m not sure what a “true balanced” component means.

 

[Bob C]

This may be a silly question but, is there genres of music that a MC cartridge sounds better than a MM cartridge and vice versa?

 

[Bob C]

I don't believe that there are any SACD/DVD-Audio players on the commercial market that use balanced outputs for all 6 channels, so yes, you need six unbalanced cables. Some players also use balanced outputs for the stereo SACD signal (e.g., Oppo), and depending on the rest of your system, this may or may not make a difference. Does your receiver/integrated/preamp even have balanced inputs to take advantage of these outputs?

My McIntosh MX-136 has balanced ports along with my McIntosh MC-7205 amp along with the Parasound Zphono XRM phono preamp. A while back when I was setting up the equipment, I believe one of the XLR ports had a stripped screw or something. You are of course correct, the interconnect between the Oppo and the MX136 would have to be rca’s. The amp and preamp can be connected by XLRs.

 

[swechsler]

I’m not sure what a “true balanced” component means.

Many electronics with balanced inputs and/or outputs simply convert it to an unbalanced signal once inside. True balanced mean it's fully balanced within the component as well, including in any amplification circuitry.

 

[Bob C]

Thanks Frog Whisperer!

 

[twiiii]

I build all my own XLR cables. I have been using Canare cable for over 40 it seems to me. I don't like Neutrick or Switch craft connectors either much preferring the old Cannon connectors my self. Fortunately I still have a bunch hidden away from the days when I used to do remote recordings of musical groups. Just like I have ample amounts of Monster cable RCA connectors and TRS phone plugs. I even a few mini plugs and Din connectors, that I use very rarely. Banana plugs is all I have to acquire occasionally now days. Preferably gold plated.

 

[Akustic]

Buy a pair and listen ... you can always return them if the difference isn't worth the cost ..

 

[Schroedinger]

If you have long cable runs in environments with a lot of electrical noise, balanced can be worth it. Main qualification is that for it to be worth anything, you need truly balanced signals and equipment from end to end. In my opinion, for most hi-fi applications with reasonable cable runs in reasonable environments, it's overkill. A "truly balanced" signal will use op amps to invert the signal into two out-of-phase signals on two different wires, then invert one of the signals and sum them with again with op amps at the destination. If you're running between multiple pieces of equipment, it's balancing and unbalancing the signal multiple times. You could make the case that the extra processing to balance/unbalance the signal could add unnecessary distortion, although I'm of the belief that it's negligible in most cases.

Turn on all your gear. Turn you volume knob up to normal listening volume. Sit in your listening position. Do you hear any noise? If not, you probably don't need balanced equipment.

 

[E-Stat]

Some components like my preamp were specifically designed for balanced operation and exhibit lower distortion.

Balanced connections minimize the effect cables have on the devices to which they're attached.

A "truly balanced" signal will use op amps...

Some do while others use discrete devices.

 

[Schroedinger]

Some components like my preamp were specifically designed for balanced operation and exhibit lower distortion.

Balanced connections minimize the effect cables have on the devices to which they're attached.


Some do while others use discrete devices.

Unless a component is specifically designed for balanced operation, it’s not balanced. When you say your preamp has lower distortion- than what? Any balanced setup has to split and invert, invert again, and sum signals. Whether with op amps or discrete components, there is some processing going on there that’s not present with unbalanced signals. Sometimes multiple times for the same signal. As for minimizing the effect of cables- each signal is now dependent on two cable runs instead of one. So a balanced stereo signal needs four cable runs instead of two. Unless the wires in a pair have identical impedance, capacitance and inductance, you’re now introducing distortion into the signal. How would this strategy minimize the effect of the cables?
Maybe “balanced” means something totally different in hi-fi than it does in pro audio, I don’t know. The reason it’s used in pro audio is to reduce EMI on low level signals in long cable runs.

 

[E-Stat]

Unless a component is specifically designed for balanced operation, it’s not balanced.

And???

When you say your preamp has lower distortion- than what?

Running unbalanced.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-sp20-preamplifier-measurements

How would this strategy minimize the effect of the cables?

According to Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere, it reduces sensitivity to cable metrics like L and C.

http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resource-why-balanced.html

Maybe “balanced” means something totally different in hi-fi than it does in pro audio, I don’t know.

It improves audio performance regardless of use case.

 

[wyn palmer]

And???


Running unbalanced.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-sp20-preamplifier-measurements


According to Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere, it reduces sensitivity to cable metrics like L and C.

http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resource-why-balanced.html


It improves audio performance regardless of use case.

And yet, the SoTA Acrux beats all of the SP20 specs in both single ended and balanced mode, and there's essentially no performance difference between the single ended and balanced mode for it, besides 6dB higher gain and twice the output swings/overload levels.
The Atmasphere cable sensitivity statement is valid only because the assumption made is that in balanced mode the source and load impedances are lower. That need not be true, and generally, these days, it is not true.
Phono cartridges are intrinsically floating. That means a single ended input where the cartridge is not itself grounded does not have global signal ground currents and behaves precisely the same whether the input is balanced or not (it only has two terminals to close the circuit- what goes out the + must come back in the -) even in the presence of external fields, provided the wire is tightly twisted- just as in the balanced case- at least until we get to RF frequencies. The external shield can still be connected to ground at the preamp and no signal current will flow through it.
The same, or better, levels of even order distortion can be achieved using single ended gain stages with differential inputs as can be achieved with the balanced designs that I have seen. And with balanced, even if you get even order distortion cancellation, the likelihood is that the more undesirable odd order distortion products are worsened.
Really, it all depends on the specifics of the design. Balanced is not a magic bullet.

 

[E-Stat]

And yet, the SoTA Acrux beats all of the SP20 specs in both single ended and balanced mode, and there's essentially no performance difference between the single ended and balanced mode for it, besides 6dB higher gain and twice the output swings/overload levels.

I stopped worrying over specs that fail to correlate to what you hear decades ago. Lots of stuff measures great but doesn't sound like live music.

ASR's dedication to SINAD is laughable!

 

[wyn palmer]

I stopped worrying over specs that fail to correlate to what you hear decades ago. Lots of stuff measures great but doesn't sound like live music.

ASR's dedication to SINAD is laughable!

This is not about SINAD. This is balanced versus unbalanced.
What I wrote above has nothing to do with SINAD, other than the distortion numbers happening to be exemplary.