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Balanced vs Unbalanced For Discussion

4Play

Super Member
Banned
I'm not sure where this should go, which is why I'm posting in General Audio Discussion.

Let's talk about Balanced vs Unbalanced connections in our audio system. Right now, my system is running unbalanced. I am curious to know if this will make any difference at all in my system. This would be the last tweak I could do without upgrading the innerds of the amps.

Unbalanced - You have one connection with a ground. As sound travels the length of the cable to your power source, the sound will be noisy (Not necessarily noticeable to our ears, but nevertheless still noisy).

Balanced - You have two connections with a ground. As the sound travels it the length of the cable to your power source, one connection gets flipped, and the noise will cancel itself out to become clear.

I understand this is basically for larger rooms and larger lengths of cable. However, will this make a difference on a smaller room using smaller lengths of cable. I would be interested in reading your thoughts/opinions on this topic, and whether or not you are running balanced or unbalanced, would this be something you would recommend others to do, or would it be unnecessary for the home.

What say Yee the masses? :music:
 
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In amateur we deal with balanced and unbalanced feed lines for transmitting antennas. For us unbalanced are less suseptable to EMI but have more line loss. Balanced feed lines have much less line loss but are more suseptable to EMI but there are methods to suppress it. At the DIY section of Audioholics there are articles on building balanced interconnect cables and they work very well. Here is a nice tutorial for you:

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Le...-Vs-Unbalanced-I-O-How-It-Works/ba-p/34639794
 
I run balanced, DIY cables. The run is 1.5 feet and I heard no change whatsoever. I do like the solid connection and like I've said in many cable threads here, I like the feeling of knowing that I'm running quality interconnects, regardless of whether I can hear a sonic improvement or not.

I did however a few years back try to run audio 15 feet on unbalanced and it was a disaster. I don't know what was generating all the noise but it was awful. Any run that long again and I would try to run balanced with gear that supported it.
 
Thank you Transmaster for the article. Are you running balanced or unbalanced in your system or which would you prefer to have, and would it be worth it to go balanced?
 
I run balanced, DIY cables. The run is 1.5 feet and I heard no change whatsoever. I do like the solid connection and like I've said in many cable threads here, I like the feeling of knowing that I'm running quality interconnects, regardless of whether I can hear a sonic improvement or not.

I did however a few years back try to run audio 15 feet on unbalanced and it was a disaster. I don't know what was generating all the noise but it was awful. Any run that long again and I would try to run balanced with gear that supported it.

I'm leaning towards your way of thinking. I guess I'm wanting reassurance that what I'll be doing is worth the money spent. There are two ways I can do this. One is using a splitter cable like you are using. The other way would be to use a splitter box. From what I've been reading online, you can pick one up from $35 to $90. Some of the cheaper boxes will not allow me to do what I'm trying to achieve.

Hope to see what others have to say about this. :music:
 
To get a more specific answer perhaps it would be benefical to say what you're actually doing, or want to do.

I use both balanced and unbalanced runs. I have unbalanced runs as long as 35ft with zero ingressed noise issues, using some cable that costs maybe 20 cents per foot, likely less.
 
Balanced - You have two connections with a ground. As the sound travels it the length of the cable to your power source, one connection gets flipped, and the noise will cancel itself out to become clear.

To understand what goes on in a balanced system, look up COMMON MODE REJECTION (CMR)....

Unbalanced is not necessarily noisy, and especially the distances used in the average domestic situation...

My amplifiers, crossover processor, and the pre-amp are all balanced XLR, but I could easily use unbalanced and probably not notice any difference.....
 
I thought I made it clear in the original post. My #1 goal has been to achieve the best sound quality I can possibly obtain without spending an enormous amount of money in the process.
 
I thought I made it clear in the original post. My #1 goal has been to achieve the best sound quality I can possibly obtain without spending an enormous amount of money in the process.

No, it's not clear what you're trying to do since in a later post you mentioned splitters and boxes you can buy.

Unless you have noise issues now, inserting more stuff between points A and B most likely isn't going to improve the sound in this regard.
 
I thought I made it clear in the original post. My #1 goal has been to achieve the best sound quality I can possibly obtain without spending an enormous amount of money in the process.

What??

I understand this is basically for larger rooms and larger lengths of cable. However, will this make a difference on a smaller room using smaller lengths of cable. I would be interested in reading your thoughts/opinions on this topic, and whether or not you are running balanced or unbalanced, would this be something you would recommend others to do, or would it be unnecessary for the home.

I posted my thoughts/opinions, and whether I was using balanced or not....Its clear from your opening post you do not fully understand what balanced is, so I included a key term to use in a search to get a better understanding....
It's very clear to me, no need to get you nickers in a twist because you aren't getting the answers you want.....

Over short distances up to about 15 feet unbalanced is fine for line level applications, and in fact in the past I have used longer unbalanced runs with no noise issues....

Using balanced is not a magic cure for noise issues, and certainly ground loop issues......
It also depends on the equipment you are using and how it is achieving it balanced inputs/outputs.....is it electronic or transformer balanced for example....
 
I have balanced runs between my SACD Player and my Crossovers. (3 Ft. run for the SACD, and 26 Ft. for the crossovers) I did this because I could on the SACD, and because I felt it necessary on the Crossovers due to distance. There is absolutely no noise issue on either application.
Regards,
Jim
 
My playback audio gear is all running via unbalanced lines with no issues.

With short cable runs, it's unlikely to make a significant difference either way, so I wouldn't counsel investing a lot of expense, and indeed adding more stages in the path is likely to detract a small bit from sound quality, rather than improve it, where there are no issues to address.

Balanced audio isn't intrinsically better, but it is essential in addressing certain situations that arise in pro audio, and merely convenient in others. Not so much needed in home audio.

Otto
 
I run balanced cables whenever I can. It makes more sense when the gear itself is internally balanced, I think. I also think that the sonic differences between cables are smaller for balanced connections, though if you don't think cables matter, that wouldn't matter to you. Finally, and what honestly makes the most difference to me, is that satisfying "click" when an XLR connection is made.
 
Thank you Transmaster for the article. Are you running balanced or unbalanced in your system or which would you prefer to have, and would it be worth it to go balanced?

My music system is in my man cave with all if my amateur radio gear even though I don't have RF problems I run unbalanced line mostly from Blue Jeans Cable now. However I use 450 ohm window feed-line for the main HF dipole. I have coax running into the house the balance feed line hooking into a balun, that is balanced to unbalance transformer with converts the window line to coax. The best advice I have for you it read the articles on building them over at Audioholics and give them a try, they are very cheap to build. Go to DIY Audio they have all kind of people building every kind of interconnect there is. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/
 
What??

I posted my thoughts/opinions, and whether I was using balanced or not....Its clear from your opening post you do not fully understand what balanced is, so I included a key term to use in a search to get a better understanding....
It's very clear to me, no need to get you nickers in a twist because you aren't getting the answers you want.....

Over short distances up to about 15 feet unbalanced is fine for line level applications, and in fact in the past I have used longer unbalanced runs with no noise issues....

Using balanced is not a magic cure for noise issues, and certainly ground loop issues......
It also depends on the equipment you are using and how it is achieving it balanced inputs/outputs.....is it electronic or transformer balanced for example....

You need to chill out. This is a friendly discussion about an intriguing topic that I am interested in. This is the only way we can learn what we are interested in. As I stated, balanced is best on longer runs of cable.

No, it's not clear what you're trying to do since in a later post you mentioned splitters and boxes you can buy.

Unless you have noise issues now, inserting more stuff between points A and B most likely isn't going to improve the sound in this regard.

There are three ways to have a balanced system. First is to have components that offer the connections, which Emotiva does, and I have three components that have balanced and unbalanced connections. Second, which is the cheapest way is to use a Y-XLR Balanced Splitter Cable. Third, is to use a Balanced Splitter Box.

My playback audio gear is all running via unbalanced lines with no issues.

With short cable runs, it's unlikely to make a significant difference either way, so I wouldn't counsel investing a lot of expense, and indeed adding more stages in the path is likely to detract a small bit from sound quality, rather than improve it, where there are no issues to address.

Balanced audio isn't intrinsically better, but it is essential in addressing certain situations that arise in pro audio, and merely convenient in others. Not so much needed in home audio.

Otto

Balanced is supposed to be better than unbalanced. Pro audio is how our music is produced. Wouldn't it make sense to use the same on playback. This way you are hearing how it was produced and recorded.

I hope everyone is enjoying this discussion as much as I am. This is the only we can learn about different aspects of audio. It is my hope that this thread will continue to draw discussion among our members.

Carry On!! :music:
 
I understand why Ballanced Cables are Important for Professional use, But for home use with Runs of 3 - 12' I don't see any Benefits. That said, If I had the Option (equipment with Ballanced outputs/Inputs) I might try them out. I would Never pay Extra for Ballanced outputs, or pass on equipment that didn't have them. I have run 35' of Cheap Unballanced cable with a $ Store coupler for the 10' and 25' cables and had no problems with either Video (which is far easier to detect interference) or Audio.

I think for most Home Audio use, the Benifets of Ballanced Interlink's are Very Limited. Indeed I have read more than one Review in which the Unballanced Interlinks were more Transparent and Quiter than the Ballanced Ones. There is some Very Expensive Home Stereo Equipment out there that Doesn't Even Offer Ballanced Connections. So I'm sure if it ment that much, they would have added them.
 
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Balanced is supposed to be better than unbalanced. Pro audio is how our music is produced. Wouldn't it make sense to use the same on playback. This way you are hearing how it was produced and recorded.

Nah, look at pro equipment and the patch bays are a mixture of balanced TS unbalanced TRS 1/4-inch connectors. As many have said already, unless you're talking long runs, there's no benefit. In a normal rack you're talking maybe three-foot runs. If your amps are located at your speakers, maybe it would be a different story.

My understanding has always been if you're not balanced the entire way through, you're not gaining any advantage, either. My pre-amp and EQ loop offer unbalanced, only, but my amps, active crossover, and DAC all provide balanced options. I don't use them and can't see any reason to. :dunno:
 
There are three ways to have a balanced system. First is to have components that offer the connections, which Emotiva does, and I have three components that have balanced and unbalanced connections. Second, which is the cheapest way is to use a Y-XLR Balanced Splitter Cable. Third, is to use a Balanced Splitter Box

I'm familiar with a number of ways to implement balanced lines, although I'm not sure how a simple Y splitter cable would convert unbalanced to balanced.

Regardless, I'm interested in your specific plan in order to offer an opinion more in tune with your setup than with "what if" theory.
 
If the equipment you are interconnecting is not balanced (ie RCA or Mono 1/4) There is virtually no benefit for the length of cable runs thst we are discussing. On longer runs, the extra shield, will certainly be beneficial. However it will still remain unbalanced.
 
98% of ALL audio gear, including most of the world's finest recording equipment, is internally unbalanced. Unbalanced is normally the most "pure" way to do things in short distances. We probably would have stayed with it forever and not needed Balanced, EXCEPT this happened:

We found out that unbalanced works great inside the guts of the gear when traveling inches or a few feet, BUT once the signal leaves the shielded chassis, and goes out into the real world of modern-day interference and high line impedance, the signal could quickly degrade and the S/N ratio can go down. Also, the grounding system must be very clean, because the ground is being used as the return in this single-ended system.

NEVERTHELESS, if equipment distances are kept short (10-20 feet), and proper grounding and shielding are present all around, then connecting unbalanced allows the "guts" of one equipment to talk directly to the "guts" of the other, without extra transformers or balancing circuitry.

You see, "Balanced" does not occur naturally. (in 98% of gear) It must be CREATED by running the internal unbalanced signal thru either a transformer or some type of "balancing circuitry" (term used very loosely), as it leaves the chassis. Now you have an audio "differential pair", with available ground and shielding options, which can run low impedance for a LONG distance to the next piece of gear. When the signal gets to the next piece of gear, which is unbalanced internally of course, the signal must be converted back to unbalanced, so it must pass thru ANOTHER transformer or "unbalancing circuitry" (term used very loosely) as it goes into the first stage of the receiving gear.

So for large, professional setups like studios, theaters, concerts, film sets, etc, Balanced solves all kinds of problems with a minimum of compromise.

The problem with introducing Balanced into the typical "home system", is inevitably you will be mixing and matching balanced and unbalanced. There are at least a million pieces of gear to help you do this, and a million opinions about correct practices, but they almost all involve compromise.

Scenario: You have 2 pieces of equipment that both have BUILT-IN balanced connections and do not need any extra devices to connect to each other with an XLR cable.
Result: For the price of going thru "a little extra circuitry or transformers", you have a very reliable connection that can travel long distances. It is not likely to provide better sound quality but may provide lower noise. You may also be able to lift the ground if there is a "grounding problem." Also, some people (particularly studio engineers) may not mind running thru an extra transformer or two because they like the "sound" of a particular unit's input or output transformers. No problem.

Scenario: You have a piece of equipment that has both types of connections, and also one that has only Unbalanced connections. You would need an "adapter" of some sort to connect them with a balanced cable.
Result: You should either ignore the balanced and connect Unbalanced, OR if desired, use a high-quality transformer or active (powered) device to balanced the unbalanced piece. DO NOT use any sort of inexpensive passive adapter or splitter, or you will defeat the common-mode rejection, and defeat the whole purpose of the balanced line. DO NOT use a cheap line transformer from Radio Shack, the quality will suffer, defeating the purpose of the balanced connection.

Scenario: You have 2 pieces of equipment that both have only Unbalanced connections. You want to connect them using balanced connections.
Result: The only conceivable purpose for doing this would be if you NEED to separate the 2 pieces of gear by more than 10-20 feet. Then, you should use either high quality transformers or high quality active devices to do the balanced/unbalanced conversions, allowing you to run a longer, low impedance line. If you don't need the equipment to be that far apart, or only have access to cheap, passive balanced/unbalanced adapters, then don't do it. You would be running your signal thru unnecessary stages for no good reason. Stay unbalanced for best quality.

Excellent document about Balanced and Unbalanced connectivity:
http://www.rane.com/note110.html

Believe it or not, it was Ma Bell that discovered much of what we know about signal line transmission.

**The reason why a cheap passive adapter/splitter thingy will RUIN the common mode rejection, is because the term "balanced" basically means "impedance balanced", IE, the 2 signal lines have equal impedance to ground. Most of the passive adapters merely tie pin 1 and pin 3 together, which connects one of the signal lines directly to ground, killing the effect. Also, this can dirty up your grounding system by driving audio signal into it. It can also affect the impedance and result in lower signal level, which, again, defeats the whole purpose.
 
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