Best cabinet for a 416-8C (flat ferrite magnet), 511B, 902-8T and more

[morfeora]

Hello friends,
A year ago my Altec Journey, started with the acquisition of a non-matching pair of possible 802B-802C (Still for identification, I might create a thread for this) compression drivers. I just bought them because I realize they were of value but with no idea of what to do with them in the future. But two weeks ago, everything started to move at a huge speed! I found here in my city a pair of 515B (for re-cone. I might create another thread to ask about this work too) and a pair of 416-8C with the original cone and in general good condition. Last week things become even better, I found a set of three 511B horns including 902-8T compression drivers. Well, maybe you can imagine my happiness because I got the feeling that this would be something... and all this for a very, very cheap price; to give you an idea, around $80 USD per horn+driver set.

I have been reading a lot, trying to figure out what to assemble with the 416-8C and 511B, 902-8T combo. I found that this make almost a late production Model 19, but I have been disappointed for all the bad comments on this variant of the 416 and the non-matching horn (Model 19 using the 811 horn).

Knowing this 416 is not the best performer, I would like to hear your ideas about what could be the best cabinet for this variant of the 416-8C. What cabinet could make the most of this woofer?
I have though about an Onken cabinet, but read from someone here that there is not a big difference when using a regular bass reflex cabinet. And for me this has a lot of sense, if Onken cabinets were such a good thing, for sure the big brands, let's say current JBL, would be using this type of cabinets?

My other idea was to build a model 19 cabinet, but again, the model 19 cabinet was designed based on the 416-8B, and adding the complaints about the Model 19 using the 416-8C, well, seams not the best option.

So far my best option is to build a 620 cabinet (and set the horn on top), at least in the "Customizing Altec Enclosures" paper there are specs and measures to adapt this cabinet specifically to the 416-8C, and as I am not a speaker designer and my experiences with box design is little (even when I have been reading a lot about this too), this is possible the best to do.


What do you think guys? Am I right thinking that my the best option is to build a 620 cabinet? Or to design a new bass reflex enclosure could get more out of this woofer. Any help to solve this confusion will be great, guys. One more question, it is this the 416-8C really that bad? Does anyone have make measures comparing this with the 416-8B?

Cheers,
Rodolfo

 

[morfeora]

Just for those curious about the other things, the 515Bs to recone (I think I would like to build a pair of A7 with this once reconed):

 

[morfeora]

This is one of the classic compression drivers, 80XX?:

 

[Nyjblbob]

[Qt for this variant of the 416-8C. What cabinet could make the most of this woofer?
I have though about an Onken cabinet, but read from someone here that there is not a big difference when using a regular bass reflex cabinet. And for me this has a lot of sense, if Onken cabinets were such a good thing, for sure the big brands, let's say current JBL, would be using this type of cabinets?

Have you ever seen Onken cabs?
Not only are they Huge, but super expensive to make.

 

[morfeora]

And here is the other one
PD: Sorry to mix all this stuff guys, but I wasn't able to hold my self of sharing all this little toys I have to play around
Cheers,
Rodolfo

 

[morfeora]

[Qt for this variant of the 416-8C. What cabinet could make the most of this woofer?
I have though about an Onken cabinet, but read from someone here that there is not a big difference when using a regular bass reflex cabinet. And for me this has a lot of sense, if Onken cabinets were such a good thing, for sure the big brands, let's say current JBL, would be using this type of cabinets?

Have you ever seen Onken cabs?
Not only are they Huge, but super expensive to make.

I have seen them only in pictures, the size is not a problem, the only problem regarding the Onken for my here, is to found Baltic birch. Think that would be impossible here in Colombia. But having the material, I do have a very close Carpentier and luthier friend willing to build them for me.

 

[oldfashioned]

I tried to delete this post because of a double-post.

 

[oldfashioned]

When I follow the discussion on the internet, I can't believe that an Onken speaker box has to be made out of Baltic Birch. Maybe that was the case when the description was first published, but nowadays you have better materials. I'm thinking of medium density fiberboard. It's certainly heavier, more difficult to saw, but more stable over time and doesn't warp or swing. Also it is cheaper, but the surface needs to be veneered. In my eyes, the Onken principle is just a modified bass reflex version. It may not sound disrespectful. I also know that when building loudspeakers yourself, the feeling for the material has to be right. However, the result should then be a box without the housing's own sound, especially given the size of the loudspeaker.
No offense,
oldfashioned

 

[Nyjblbob]

When I follow the discussion on the internet, I can't believe that an Onken speaker box has to be made out of Baltic Birch. Maybe that was the case when the description was first published, but nowadays you have better materials. I'm thinking of medium density fiberboard. It's certainly heavier, more difficult to saw, but more stable over time and doesn't warp or swing. Also it is cheaper, /QUOTE]

More stable than 7/8” Baltic Birch
In What World???

 

[dbALE]

Nice score, although the 816-8C isn’t concerted the best altec made it’s still very, very good.

You do know that disassembling the 802’s will require a re-mag before you can use them.

 

[MacSic]

Hello friends,
A year ago my Altec Journey, started with the acquisition of a non-matching pair of possible 802B-802C (Still for identification, I might create a thread for this) compression drivers. I just bought them because I realize they were of value but with no idea of what to do with them in the future. But two weeks ago, everything started to move at a huge speed! I found here in my city a pair of 515B (for re-cone. I might create another thread to ask about this work too) and a pair of 416-8C with the original cone and in general good condition. Last week things become even better, I found a set of three 511B horns including 902-8T compression drivers. Well, maybe you can imagine my happiness because I got the feeling that this would be something... and all this for a very, very cheap price; to give you an idea, around $80 USD per horn+driver set.

I have been reading a lot, trying to figure out what to assemble with the 416-8C and 511B, 902-8T combo. I found that this make almost a late production Model 19, but I have been disappointed for all the bad comments on this variant of the 416 and the non-matching horn (Model 19 using the 811 horn).

Knowing this 416 is not the best performer, I would like to hear your ideas about what could be the best cabinet for this variant of the 416-8C. What cabinet could make the most of this woofer?
I have though about an Onken cabinet, but read from someone here that there is not a big difference when using a regular bass reflex cabinet. And for me this has a lot of sense, if Onken cabinets were such a good thing, for sure the big brands, let's say current JBL, would be using this type of cabinets?

My other idea was to build a model 19 cabinet, but again, the model 19 cabinet was designed based on the 416-8B, and adding the complaints about the Model 19 using the 416-8C, well, seams not the best option.

So far my best option is to build a 620 cabinet (and set the horn on top), at least in the "Customizing Altec Enclosures" paper there are specs and measures to adapt this cabinet specifically to the 416-8C, and as I am not a speaker designer and my experiences with box design is little (even when I have been reading a lot about this too), this is possible the best to do.
View attachment 2558874

What do you think guys? Am I right thinking that my the best option is to build a 620 cabinet? Or to design a new bass reflex enclosure could get more out of this woofer. Any help to solve this confusion will be great, guys. One more question, it is this the 416-8C really that bad? Does anyone have make measures comparing this with the 416-8B?

Cheers,
Rodolfo

I never had a 416-8c but I remember this thread:
"The Altec 416-8B or C may look similar but they were optimized for different purposes. The B for vented box bass and the C mostly for bass horn loading. Of the 5 cabinets specified by Altec for the C version 4 of them are bass horns, that gives an indication (815A, 816A, 825B, 828G). Plus the 416-8C is not mentioned for the 620 cab."
From: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?42912-416-8B-cabinet

 

[morfeora]

When I follow the discussion on the internet, I can't believe that an Onken speaker box has to be made out of Baltic Birch. Maybe that was the case when the description was first published, but nowadays you have better materials. I'm thinking of medium density fiberboard. It's certainly heavier, more difficult to saw, but more stable over time and doesn't warp or swing. Also it is cheaper, but the surface needs to be veneered. In my eyes, the Onken principle is just a modified bass reflex version. It may not sound disrespectful. I also know that when building loudspeakers yourself, the feeling for the material has to be right. However, the result should then be a box without the housing's own sound, especially given the size of the loudspeaker.
No offense,
oldfashioned

Yes I thought the same, I can use other materials. Particle board can be found here, even MDF could works better than Baltic Birch in terms of density and damping. But I am still not sure if this is what I should build. I have read many theorical opinions, but just one person that having an onken cabinet, say that sound is not so distant from a properly made regular bass reflex.

Nice score, although the 816-8C isn’t concerted the best altec made it’s still very, very good.

You do know that disassembling the 802’s will require a re-mag before you can use them.

Thank you dbALE, yes I read about re-mag and the degaussing. But I did a simple tone test before and after that disassemble, and no change was measure in sensitivity. Any way yes, I will found where to magnetize again those as it is the adequate practice.

I never had a 416-8c but I remember this thread:
"The Altec 416-8B or C may look similar but they were optimized for different purposes. The B for vented box bass and the C mostly for bass horn loading. Of the 5 cabinets specified by Altec for the C version 4 of them are bass horns, that gives an indication (815A, 816A, 825B, 828G). Plus the 416-8C is not mentioned for the 620 cab."
From: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?42912-416-8B-cabinet

Hi MacSic, yes I read that post. I am holding myself of building a horn cabinet, because I read that would not help the lowest part of the spectrum. In order to get all the bass this woofer can give (knowing this is not the its strength) A bass reflex could be better. Some one can confirm this by experience?

And here in the attachment, there is a mention on the example 2, the use of a 416-8C in a bass reflex cabinet. And also specs and measures to adapt it to various cabinets. According to this, maybe a horn cabinet is no the only "right" option?
This is taking form this paper:
http://alteclansingunofficial.nlene...letters/AN-5_CustomizingAltecLFEnclosures.pdf

 

[MacSic]

....


Hi MacSic, yes I read that post. I am holding myself of building a horn cabinet, because I read that would not help the lowest part of the spectrum. In order to get all the bass this woofer can give (knowing this is not the its strength) A bass reflex could be better. Some one can confirm this by experience?

And here in the attachment, there is a mention on the example 2, the use of a 416-8C in a bass reflex cabinet. And also specs and measures to adapt it to various cabinets. According to this, maybe a horn cabinet is no the only "right" option?
......

Hi,
Indeed there is not only one choice but if you like the sound of a cabinet type horn you will not find this sound with a bass-reflex and in both cases a subwoofer will be necessary in my opinion. The only satisfactory basis is its taste for my part I like the effect of the horn in the region of 150 to 250hz but the cabinet horn is always more complex to manufacture.

 

[morfeora]

Hi,
Indeed there is not only one choice but if you like the sound of a cabinet type horn you will not find this sound with a bass-reflex and in both cases a subwoofer will be necessary in my opinion. The only satisfactory basis is its taste for my part I like the effect of the horn in the region of 150 to 250hz but the cabinet horn is always more complex to manufacture.

You got me thinking all this time MacSic, asking myself how a horn speaker could sound. So I went to see videos to make an image of what this could be. Finally reading around I found that really there is no point for me to use a horn speaker in my closed space, is out of the application I intend to use my speakers, in a closed space (absolutely respect for those how love their horn speakers in their music rooms). From my point of view, "sounds" more adequate a bass reflex or a transmission line (as I have been recommended internally) for close listening. I am still thinking about it, specially because it seems all I got suits perfect for a VOTT V7 (I imagine that a late production came with this variant of the 416-8C, mine were obviously installed in a horn cabinet). You did make me realize something, any way if I want the lower bass I will have to add a subwoofer, and that way to give each driver to handle their best. Any way, according to my calculations in winISD a 9 cub3 box could go to 36hz for f3 and the Model 19 is rated from 30 Hz according to specs, to start, that performance should be ok for the kind of music I most like to listen which is mainly acoustic, jazz and some Dire Straits It seems now the only decision I have to make is around style and may be a bit of ambitious (always wanting the best possible).

So far I have a technical question for you guys, why if the 620 cabinet (still my best option) is a bass reflex, it has a port in the back, and a square aperture in the front? Why isn't enough with just a port as modern bass reflex enclosures?

Best,
Rodolfo

 

[dbALE]

The round opening on the back is for a terminal cup on a 620B. The 620A used a square opening.
Although not used for port’s in these cabinets a rear port is used in many bass reflex cabinets.

 

[morfeora]

Obviously dBAle, now is obvious, thank you for take me out of my ignorance. Now everything have a lot of sense. I was confused wile reviewing the different port sizes and comparing this with the build plans. Thank you!

 

[morfeora]

Hello friends,
It has been a wile since my last post, as my first son arrived some months ago, well... taking care of a newborn happily requires all our attention . Slowly I am retuning to my project:

After a lot of research about the proper cabinet material, my conclusion is that most plywood and MDF will work, concluding that is more important a proper bracing and damping of the cabinet internally. Inspired by Jean Hiraga speakers where he used striped board, I when to look to woods adequate to this task on my country. I founded a company producing striped boards of Acacia Mangium (a native tree and from reforested wood) that have a density of 650 Kg/m3m, very similar to the 600Kg/m3 of MDF.
The Jean Hiraga speakers. Image taken from here: https://6moons.com/industryfeatures/hiraga/hiraga.html


So, I am going to build the cabinets by myself and I already bought the boards, hopefully I will have the cuts tomorrow (Monday). In the meanwhile, I was preparing my self to the task; buying everything I think I will need and studying about joins and things like that. I am still not sure what kind of joins I will use, I set the cuttings to use basic butt joins (using dowels, the JoinMate tool will work perfect for that), but I think I can make the cabinet a little small and use bevel joins if I want (cabinet can be tuned later with the damping material -I bought felt, more damping more virtual volume- or taking away volume with sand bags). I also order a Router with some bits, maybe I can experiment with different joins, let's see. As I really want to build several cabinets in my life, I choose better to buy the tools and made them by myself that asking my carpenter friend for it. I will be calling my grandfather blood, I did not have the opportunity to know him alive, but he was a very good carpenter


This is the look of the board:


This will be the dimensions of all the faces and more or less the symmetry of the final configuration.


I think in the future I would like to make a cabinet for the 511 horns, but as I guess it will be a lot of experimentation at the beginning, I will leave this for the future. This is a scale drawing.



I will be posting soon my building endeavours...
Cheers,
Rodolfo

 

[srm51555]

Rodolfo,

Congrats on your new son.

 

[toddalin]

Love the "butcher block" look.

 

[morfeora]

Rodolfo,

Congrats on your new son.

Thank you! so far, as many have said before, the best experience of my life plus, hopes someone will appreciate all my vintage gear and future record collection (understanding this easily fails).

Love the "butcher block" look.

Let's hope looks good on the cabinets too.