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Bose 901 Response Graph

I really shouldn't be, but I'm stuck comparing these to the DQ-10's, which go 37-27k +/-3db. Maybe I got a really good deal on the DQ's but it seems the Bose 901's and the DQ-10's are in a similar price range and it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm sure you know it, but bear in mind the +/-3dB published for the DQs is almost certainly anechoic response. Placed in a room, they may fare no better in response curve appearance than the Bose do. And, also how much smoothing and other factors are applied to the graph and measurements.

There's a smoothed and not smoothed curve for some speakers I have, rated 39Hz-22kHz, +/-2dB, anechoic, tested with a sweep measurement using REW. Note I believe there is a sub playing on the low end in this sweep, but I don't recall for sure.
 
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I'm sure you know it, but bear in mind the +/-3dB published for the DQs is almost certainly anechoic response. Placed in a room, they may fare no better in response curve appearance than the Bose do.

Absolutely, I just like knowing that they are at least capable of such a response given the ideal circumstances.
 
Absolutely, I just like knowing that they are at least capable of such a response given the ideal circumstances.

I don't believe that an anechoic chamber would necessarily qualify as ideal circumstances, at least for listening. But I understand what you mean.


Best Regards,
TerryO
 
It seems that the bose speakers everyone talks about are always the 901's. I wouldn't mind getting a pair for cheap, but also wouldn't mind knowing how flat the response is. I'm sure there is a whole bunch of people going to tell me how it doesn't matter about response curves and how you should go with what sounds good to you. I don't care to hear any of those opinions at all. First I read specs, then I listen if I like the sound, if I'm going to buy something. I'm after a response curve of the speakers and if they fall within 3db from let's say 40hz to 20Khz. It seems there is no such thing on this planet. Why would anyone ever spend over $1000 on brand new speakers that don't advertise their response?

If anyone has a response curve of these speakers or knows where to find one, I would appreciate the link!
I find the whole reference to anechoic chamber measurements a bit ridiculous. The whole point of an anechoic chamber is the practical elimination of "reflected" sound. How in the devil do you get a respective measurement from a speaker that is solely dependent ON reflected sound, short of multiple mikes? And in doing so, how is that a fair comparison to other speakers? It's not.

I can't possibly think of any better way to compare than to have proper, not necessarily ideal or perfect, room arrangements for whatever speakers you are listening to. My allison cd7's are finicky, much like though not as much so, as 901's. In the very same room I had to change placement many times before finding an ideal position. As luck would have it, that didn't suit my seating or the arrangement of my equipment. That wasn't good as I did like the final sound, but I'm not about to change my entire room to accommodate speakers. Room aesthetics prevail, oh well.

Room acoustics, probably, play the most significant role in our enjoyment of our equipment. Sadly too many people simply claim it's the speakers and be done with it. I honestly believe what is best for me is something that sounds good to my ears, using the equipment I presently own and don't require great efforts in room reorganization. Especially where my wife is concerned. 30+ years I'm not going to screw up over speakers.
 
I've been playing with speaker placement for the last several months or even a year with the DQ-10's and MG-IIc's. I've gone through so many different positions with the speakers. I might have finally found something I like, around 7 or 8 feet for the DQ-10's and 15-16 feet for the MG-IIc's. I still haven't treated the room in any way really since I'm still searching for the ideal placement of all these.

I don't really take room acoustics into account when I'm shopping for speakers. My mentality is if the response is good, then I know it will only be the fault of the room acoustics/positioning if they sound bad, which personally I don't mind changing. As long as I'm not noticing limitations of the speakers, I'm happy. I have yet to go the full extent of treating a room acoustically, which might be on the to do list soon.
 
I don't believe that an anechoic chamber would necessarily qualify as ideal circumstances, at least for listening. But I understand what you mean.


Best Regards,
TerryO

IMO an anechoic chamber is a horrible place to be in and the worst possible place to listen to music. However, it is useful for testing sound output of loudspeakers and other devices (such as noise generated by machines) free of external interferences such as room reflections and external noise.

There are at least two problems with anechioic chamber measurements. First they are generally incomplete. To fully test something you have to examine the total energy output which means the FR in every direction in space, not just at one or a few angles from it. The second problem is correlating anechoic measurements with performance in real rooms. Without the data due to the first deficiency correlating it to real world performance isn't possible. And without a solid mathematical model even if the data were available there's be no way to make sense of it. Since no such model esixts yet owing to the still primitive state of acoustic science, anechoic measurement data is of limited value even for so called experts. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
 
I've been playing with speaker placement for the last several months or even a year with the DQ-10's and MG-IIc's. I've gone through so many different positions with the speakers. I might have finally found something I like, around 7 or 8 feet for the DQ-10's and 15-16 feet for the MG-IIc's. I still haven't treated the room in any way really since I'm still searching for the ideal placement of all these.

I don't really take room acoustics into account when I'm shopping for speakers. My mentality is if the response is good, then I know it will only be the fault of the room acoustics/positioning if they sound bad, which personally I don't mind changing. As long as I'm not noticing limitations of the speakers, I'm happy. I have yet to go the full extent of treating a room acoustically, which might be on the to do list soon.

I know what you mean about the room and placement. I owned a pair of MG-IIb's for most of 30 years. Could not make them sound better than OK in my current room. With the 901 II's it took some work but when positioned correctly sounded very good. Your results may vary.
 
I know what you mean about the room and placement. I owned a pair of MG-IIb's for most of 30 years. Could not make them sound better than OK in my current room. With the 901 II's it took some work but when positioned correctly sounded very good. Your results may vary.

The magnepans are easily to most difficult to position. The DQ-10's I can at least somewhat enjoy without nit picking the placement too much, but the MG-IIc literally hurt my ears and frustrate me in the wrong spot.
 
I think the room placement of speakers is one of the most important factors in the enjoyment of a tuned system.
 
Here are two response graphs for the 901 Series VI system, from The $ensible Sound magazine, Feb/Mar 2003, and from Digital Audio magazine, Apr 1988.

For comparison to the Bose 901 curve posted earlier in the thread I’ve attached a curve I ran across for an AR3a. Seems speaker design has come a long way since the 60’s and ‘70’s. A Polk RTi28 tested in the same fashion as the AR speaker was notably superior in smoothness from 100Hz upward looking like a flat line in contrast.
 

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I completely agree about the personal Opinion, I have found the best speaker is truly the one's you like the most, i also sold 901's from the old model 901 to the 901 series 3 they made it more efficient and improved the electronics in the EQ, we used to run Parametric Eq's with the 901 to alter the sound in the room, allot of people loved them Spacial and kinda punchy. I sold them never owned any set up allot of systems (cause most people got all messed up on the hook up of the active Eq you HAD to use.) I prefer my Dq10 to them but I also own a set of EPI 602's and they are like a 901 sound but deeper bass and spacial sound again have actually run them with the DQ10's for some interesting Results.
Music reproduction is subjective. always has been always will.
 
I don't try to make it a huge secret that I'm no fan of Bose speakers. Not because Amar wasn't capable of designing good speakers, he certainly has the capabilities to do so, but that he instead focused on marketing over product. I am not a Bose "hater", I see myself as rather pragmatic about the whole thing. They are there, they perform within their limitations, and many people enjoy listening to them. Cool for them, I'm just not one of them. That said, the reliance of FR charts to determine speaker quality is a bit of a sham. While FR charts are great to figure out where a speaker has issues, they don't convey the tonality of the speaker or many other things that are very important.

I remember a night with a friend who had some Klipsch speakers and a pair of Klipsch pro bass bins driven by a pair of tube amps. I brought over an RTA and we set about trying to tune his system to his room. In the end, we laughed our asses off. While the system sounded pretty good, the readout from the RTA was atrocious, looking more like a sawblade than a speaker response. However, the tonality was actually pretty respectable and the system was very enjoyable. I did the same thing a few months later with a friends hombrew speakers and although they measured much better, the tonality was way off. RTAs measure energy over octaves, not accuracy in tonal reproduction.

Tonality is where most Bose speakers really blow it. With either no tweeters or paper tweeters which have poor dispersion characteristics into the room, the speakers are already at a distinct disadvantage. Bose is correct when they say, indirectly, that you can't separate the room from the speaker. However, that being said, you can't use that as an excuse for not properly engineering a speaker. Since the late 70s, using paper cone tweeters really hasn't been socially acceptable in engineering circles. Using multiple paper cone tweeters to make up for the lack of dispersion, again, is not an acceptable engineering adaptation. However, it is a great differentiation ploy for marketing.

The 901 is the most successful failure in the audio industry. As a speaker at it's price point, it was a technological failure. As a platform for launching a speaker company, it was a complete success. The success was in differentiation, not in performance. The 901, given power, can play loud and will sound huge. Where they fail is in any form of accurate presentation in scale or tonality. They don't perform well at frequency extremes, are very colored through the presence and midbass areas, and lack dynamics. This isn't to say that they can't be pleasant to listen to. On the contrary, they have largely been designed to be somewhat pleasant, as has the rest of the line. The reason Bose speakers sell is that they DON'T perform very well. It's their inaccuracy that provides their appeal. They will make a bad recording sound acceptable, especially if you are not a person interested in imaging, tonality, or accurate soundstaging, as most people aren't.

using nine 4 1/2" drivers is a massive compromise in frequency response, especially highs and lows. Using an equalizer to get those drivers to go where they don't want to go can only be partially effective. There are physical limits to such actions, and the dispersion characteristics of such drivers over 500 Hz or so is not going to be stellar, and using 8 of them to fire off the back wall introduces more problems into the chain.

I mentioned before that it's not possible to remove the room from the performance of any speaker. However, introducing MORE room interaction is asking for more problems. Where a bipole will equalize energy from front to back, a 901 throws 8/9ths of it's energy into the room and only 1/9th of it's energy at the listener. This unequal loading creates many issues and adds a different dynamic to tuning issues. Where the logical ideal of a speaker system that is trying to include the room into the mix would be to create a dispersion pattern that would attempt to load the room equally over a, for simplicities sake, a 360 degree pattern from the speaker. (Actually, spherical would be more accurate but I'm trying to keep the discussion simple here.) In this attempt, the 901 fails, making it more placement sensitive, and subjecting the rear output, 8/9ths of it, to the tonal shifts of the room it's in. This means that it will sound dramatically different in sheetrock rooms than concrete, paneled vs softer, etc. A situation that guarantees a larger chance of failure than success.

The 901s have more drawbacks than attributes. Again, this isn't to say that they can't be a pleasant listen, but they just haven't been engineered to eliminate the drawbacks, they have been engineered with the drawbacks as functionally integral to the speaker.
 
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There is absolutely no reason you could not measure the response curve of a Bose 901, as they are nine IDENTICAL drivers in a ported cabinet. Anyone who can not wrap their head around this problem must believe Bose engineers are the best in the world.

If Paul Klipsch had no problem figuring out how to make an aneochic chamber work for Klipschorn measurements, surely the MIT edumaedicated Dr. Bose could do the same.

BTW, here is the equalization curves from a Bose 901 brochure.. it isn't too hard to overlay them with Rick's openfield measurements and have a lightbulb go on.
boseblowsjpg.gif


eqbose901.jpg


Please note Rick"s Series I is an accoustic suspension, while the IV is ported, but you can readily get the idea a midrange is a midrange, no matter the stripes...
901noeq18fromwallmp6.gif
 
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There is absolutely no reason you could not measure the response curve of a Bose 901, as they are nine IDENTICAL drivers in a ported cabinet. Anyone who can not wrap their head around this problem must believe Bose engineers are the best in the world.

If Paul Klipsch had no problem figuring out how to make an aneochic chamber work for Klipschorn measurements, surely the MIT edumaedicated Dr. Bose could do the same.

BTW, here is the equalization curves from a Bose 901 brochure.. it isn't too hard to overlay them with Rick's openfield measurements and have a lightbulb go on.
boseblowsjpg.gif


eqbose901.jpg


Please note Rick"s Series I is an accoustic suspension, while the IV is ported, but you can readily get the idea a midrange is a midrange, no matter the stripes...
901noeq18fromwallmp6.gif
Please forgive me as maybe I overlooked something prior in this thread, but, I don't think many people have difficulty wrapping their head around the whole response curve thing. The issue here is that the 8 drivers you're measuring are supposed to be rear facing and reflecting from walls. As an example, measuring a front facing Left Channel Main speaker says nothing when it's part of a surround system. Here you've only proven the obvious, you can measure the "on axis" and presumably off axis response of the 901.

I say take measurements, from a seated/listening position of both 901's and your favorite "pair" of speakers and overlay the results. Anechoic measurements are supposed to be a neutral measurement by which you can distinguish the "personalities" of speakers, essentially using the same measuring stick. We know that this methodology is NOT implemented in the most consistent manner among all companies. Nor is info published in the same manner, some charts are compressed or expanded to accentuate specific characteristics.

This by no means is shooting you down, just what exactly is the relevance since these speakers are not "aimed" at the listener in the same manner as traditional speakers? I don't think anyone doubts the obvious, that 901's excel in mid response, though I'd argue they begin to fall short below mid bass and fall off midway into the high end. Going by your chart, well outside "mid only" performance. Not many mids dip below 500hz nor play well above 4-5khz. These are playing comfortably down to 100hz and up to nearly 10khz. Hardly a "midrange" only speaker. Full range? Not without considerable assistance from EQ.

By the way, any thoughts on the jagged response curve? That is sick, just all over the place. Can't believe that the sum of 8 drivers will be that "all over the place" in response.
 
Please forgive me as maybe I overlooked something prior in this thread, but, I don't think many people have difficulty wrapping their head around the whole response curve thing. The issue here is that the 8 drivers you're measuring are supposed to be rear facing and reflecting from walls. As an example, measuring a front facing Left Channel Main speaker says nothing when it's part of a surround system. Here you've only proven the obvious, you can measure the "on axis" and presumably off axis response of the 901.Copa, two of the three sets of statics that Rick captured, the red and yellow graphs, are rear facing, with one reflecting from a boundary wall.
We also are measuring Bose 901s, so who cares about measuring a red herring surround system.


I say take measurements, from a seated/listening position of both 901's and your favorite "pair" of speakers and overlay the results. Anechoic measurements are supposed to be a neutral measurement by which you can distinguish the "personalities" of speakers, essentially using the same measuring stick. We know that this methodology is NOT implemented in the most consistent manner among all companies. Nor is info published in the same manner, some charts are compressed or expanded to accentuate specific characteristics.An aneochic chart shows a snapshot of speaker performance in a dead air space free of any environmental feedback, which allows the manufacturer to ascertain flaws in driver, crossover, and enclosure design and implementation. Taken in this manner, the only marketing involved is what smoothing equation, if any, is used to remove the grossest peaks and valleys. For Rick's readings, I'm sure he either used no sum of least squares, or his normal smoothing third order(and I doubt this.) His charts show a nice comb filtering distortion process across the board.

This by no means is shooting you down, just what exactly is the relevance since these speakers are not "aimed" at the listener in the same manner as traditional speakers?Please visit the read and yellow readings again. I don't think anyone doubts the obvious, that 901's excel in mid response, though I'd argue they begin to fall short below mid bass and fall off midway into the high end. Going by your chart, well outside "mid only" performance. Not many mids dip below 500hz nor play well above 4-5khz. These are playing comfortably down to 100hz and up to nearly 10khz. Hardly a "midrange" only speaker. Full range? Not without considerable assistance from EQ.Please take a look at the inflection shoulders on the least equalized graph line before you aver they comfortable play from 100Hz to nearly 10kHz. While they have significant energy for extended range, I use comfortable for a mid speaker in the region where they play =/- 1dB from low to high shoulder.

By the way, any thoughts on the jagged response curve? That is sick, just all over the place. Can't believe that the sum of 8 drivers will be that "all over the place" in response.
Again, you are going to see some significant nodes and nulls from pronounced comb filtering, and that also is the nature of measurement data when you capture a very finite number of data points per octave. The goal is to take just enough data to get a good handle on anomolies, not to make a beautiful plot to sell more speakers.

When you see ten to fifteen dB variations in a 3-6 datapoints per octave graph, most companies will be going back to the drawing board. Bose knew this, hence they mainly declined to publish the relevant charts, except at the back end with the equalization curves like I posted.

Bose knew what he needed, and he purpose selected a mid that was rugged and had a stiff, heavier cone with a pronounced low end bump. He sought to build a speaker that would play loud and fit in a smaller room, and (like Klipsch) he went for low cost and minimal engineering. He certainly hit an economic home run, as I would say the Bose 901 is the best example of marketing and market pentration being maximized in the history of stereo here in the US.
 
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