Brian
An Old Geezer
You need to go learn the difference between value and price. You are mixing apples and oranges. Nothing worse than someone spouting off as if some form of expert not knowing the slightest about what he is discussing.
You have absolutely no knowledge about me, my tastes, wants, predilections, of anything that makes me prefer anything or can see or hear. I definitely am not a vintage equipment fanboy (think that is the modern term). Much of the equipment I discuss and mention was new at the time I owned, auditioned or otherwise had access to it. It may be odd but believe it or not some persons actually bought and owned vintage units when they were brand spanking new. My main system was finalized in '69-'70 and did not change until about 2000. The last of it is still with me. I bought new pieces throughout that period many costing several thousands of dollars only to find the quality of engineering, its, construction and sound not be as good as what I had. Other times I found the unit may have been somewhat better in one or more respects but for the price, the added value was not there and returned to what I had. With time, though my preferences did advance some 10 years before settling down again. I still from time,energy to time audition new units, sometimes at the request of some old friend still in the industry and there is some pretty good stuff still being made but for me, the value no longer exists because of my future plans as they exist other than possibly for speakers.
About 2+ years ago I did have an ATI pass through the house and the build was so so, nothing of note worthy. The sound was that of a PA amp. loud, strong, in your face and as refunded as say an early Corvette. If you are into partying, electronic, or rock and could care less about hearing what a closely miked violin sounds like in close to real life, the ATI could be for you. It would make for a good candidate HT amp, I suspect but, I am not into that.
I agree with your discussion as to methodology regarding trying to establish an average price range. It takes sales both covering a number of units and over time to get an actual range and trend. A few sales and/or only taken from a short period can be skewed for a number of reasons. Also, with used audio equipment it seems another variable related to reported condition needs to be factored in as does location. Also, I am not quite in agreement that a place like the auction site establish a fair market value but only a range of prices in several markets. Local sales come closer to prices in the community that can vary greatly from another community. Few persons in the US for instance appear to be willing to pay for certain brands and models that some in the Asian markets will gladly pay to obtain.
The price of a unit in the marketplace does not necessarily have any relationship to quality. In fact sometimes features that increase the prices with some are the same feature that can keep prices down with other units, though both may be the same quality or the lesser priced one may be better. In the Bozak's case, the company always had limited marketing and markets as it was never a high volume manufacturer. Hence, the marketplace as a whole had little exposure or knowledge of the speakers and even less about the electronics. This was not unusual with many US companies of that period. In the US there were many we would call mom and pop companies and today their products are all but unknown except by a small population. Most have disappeared from existence, other survive while others exist only as a marketing label. One of these few ever heard of was Mattes, another CM Labs, then there is Grommes. Some companies products became timeless collectibles such as the REL fm tuner, but the underlying company was a major force in other areas of electronics. Drake was another when it partnered with Sherwood. For other companies their products for some period were not widely known such as Sherwood. Until not many years ago you could buy their tube units for pennies on the dollar, then the marketplace began to realize that they were as good and better than some of the far more recognized and sought after brands and today the prices are substantially higher but still do not command the prices of competing units from more recognized companies. Rarity had kept the prices down as they were not well known but now that has reversed.
If I were just entering the market today, I likely would mix new and used equipment, new and old technologies and might not even do other than center my system around HT as a totally emotional experience, something in the '60 was limited to sound or visual but, virtually never a combination within the home.
You mention the Pioneer receiver and pooh pooh pooh those who pay dearly for one. I agree that to me and apparently to you the value does not reflect the market prices but for others, it does. It does not mean we are right or they wrong just our values are different. You do not see the value in the Bozaks other do, so be it. It neither means you are right and they wrong, just that they see value where you do not as I do not see any value in your beloved ATI for me while you appear to highly value it. You will think I am wrong and you right and conversely I see it as you are wrong and I am right. The reality it simply means we have different criteria for and value systems and they are both personal and different.
You have absolutely no knowledge about me, my tastes, wants, predilections, of anything that makes me prefer anything or can see or hear. I definitely am not a vintage equipment fanboy (think that is the modern term). Much of the equipment I discuss and mention was new at the time I owned, auditioned or otherwise had access to it. It may be odd but believe it or not some persons actually bought and owned vintage units when they were brand spanking new. My main system was finalized in '69-'70 and did not change until about 2000. The last of it is still with me. I bought new pieces throughout that period many costing several thousands of dollars only to find the quality of engineering, its, construction and sound not be as good as what I had. Other times I found the unit may have been somewhat better in one or more respects but for the price, the added value was not there and returned to what I had. With time, though my preferences did advance some 10 years before settling down again. I still from time,energy to time audition new units, sometimes at the request of some old friend still in the industry and there is some pretty good stuff still being made but for me, the value no longer exists because of my future plans as they exist other than possibly for speakers.
About 2+ years ago I did have an ATI pass through the house and the build was so so, nothing of note worthy. The sound was that of a PA amp. loud, strong, in your face and as refunded as say an early Corvette. If you are into partying, electronic, or rock and could care less about hearing what a closely miked violin sounds like in close to real life, the ATI could be for you. It would make for a good candidate HT amp, I suspect but, I am not into that.
I agree with your discussion as to methodology regarding trying to establish an average price range. It takes sales both covering a number of units and over time to get an actual range and trend. A few sales and/or only taken from a short period can be skewed for a number of reasons. Also, with used audio equipment it seems another variable related to reported condition needs to be factored in as does location. Also, I am not quite in agreement that a place like the auction site establish a fair market value but only a range of prices in several markets. Local sales come closer to prices in the community that can vary greatly from another community. Few persons in the US for instance appear to be willing to pay for certain brands and models that some in the Asian markets will gladly pay to obtain.
The price of a unit in the marketplace does not necessarily have any relationship to quality. In fact sometimes features that increase the prices with some are the same feature that can keep prices down with other units, though both may be the same quality or the lesser priced one may be better. In the Bozak's case, the company always had limited marketing and markets as it was never a high volume manufacturer. Hence, the marketplace as a whole had little exposure or knowledge of the speakers and even less about the electronics. This was not unusual with many US companies of that period. In the US there were many we would call mom and pop companies and today their products are all but unknown except by a small population. Most have disappeared from existence, other survive while others exist only as a marketing label. One of these few ever heard of was Mattes, another CM Labs, then there is Grommes. Some companies products became timeless collectibles such as the REL fm tuner, but the underlying company was a major force in other areas of electronics. Drake was another when it partnered with Sherwood. For other companies their products for some period were not widely known such as Sherwood. Until not many years ago you could buy their tube units for pennies on the dollar, then the marketplace began to realize that they were as good and better than some of the far more recognized and sought after brands and today the prices are substantially higher but still do not command the prices of competing units from more recognized companies. Rarity had kept the prices down as they were not well known but now that has reversed.
If I were just entering the market today, I likely would mix new and used equipment, new and old technologies and might not even do other than center my system around HT as a totally emotional experience, something in the '60 was limited to sound or visual but, virtually never a combination within the home.
You mention the Pioneer receiver and pooh pooh pooh those who pay dearly for one. I agree that to me and apparently to you the value does not reflect the market prices but for others, it does. It does not mean we are right or they wrong just our values are different. You do not see the value in the Bozaks other do, so be it. It neither means you are right and they wrong, just that they see value where you do not as I do not see any value in your beloved ATI for me while you appear to highly value it. You will think I am wrong and you right and conversely I see it as you are wrong and I am right. The reality it simply means we have different criteria for and value systems and they are both personal and different.
