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Bozak Crossover

Wel, I guess this is the answer from the Yahoo Bozak group...

"Yes, double the cap value to 50mfd and at the “B” lug strip, you will need to move the woofer (B-199) #2 wire up to the top tap. This is necessary for 400Hz. I’ve assumed your Tobinized N-101T/B-302 crossovers are 800/2500Hz. You will see on your Tobinized N-101T, the woofer #2 wire is connected to the bottom lug tap. Note: The midrange #2 lead wire should already be connected to the top “A” tap(lug). With Pat’s N-101T mod he moves the mid lead wire from the bottom to top lug known as the 1250Hz fix. Hope this helps. You can view a photo of my N-104T crossover Pat did for my Symphs. It’s located in the Crossover/Network folder. As they say, a picture paints a thousand words.

Judy
 
OK, I've moved BOTH inductor leads as that seems to be the way for the 104T. Both are now on the "top" lugs which are those closest to the physically bigger coil and the front of the crossover board where the inputs are.

So based on this arrangement, what are the crossover points now? I'm guessing 400 and 1250 from what I can dig up over that the Yahoo group, but that site does have a learning curve I'm way down on...

Somebody should also clarify the placement of the lugs on the inductors, as that's the biggest problem I'm seeing now. I'm guessing that big one has 3.0 mH (top) for the 104T mod and the 1.6mH (bottom) lug for the 101T. Same inductor, different taps.

Also it appears that the Tobin mods reverse the inverse polarity of the mid as I noted on the original crossover the coil attaches to the #1 terminal and the cap to the #2. The 104T has this reversed.

Lots of subtleties here....
 
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OK, here's Pat Tobin himself on it from SHF...

"Hi Tony and other Bozak friends. I finally got off the dime and joined the group. Haven't yet scanned all Bozak posts, but will do so soon.

Regarding Tony's mods to my mods: for the lower xover freq., Bozak used 800 for the (single woofer) 302A systems and 400 Hz for the larger Symphony (two woofs per box) and Concert Grand (four woofs per box). The reason for using 800 on the 302A is not clear. I believe it has to do with the use of the B-207A 'coax' as the woofer-tweeter unit. This brings the tweeters down in front of the woofer and away from the midrange. I feel that 800 Hz might have served better for that driver relative spacing, altho I can't swear to it. The 400 Hz lower xover freq. was available as an option for the 302A, altho not promoted.

If my theory is correct, 400 Hz is better when the tweets are 'liberated' from down low, in front of the woofer.

Now for the upper xover freq. What Tony is alluding to is that the world-beating B-209B midrange sings quite happily up to 10 kHz. (The upper bandwidth limit could not be lowered in the physical construction of the driver without degrading transient response.) Rolloff is theoretically by means of the inductor in series with the midrange. Problem is, any driver has a rising impedance characteristic in the top portion of its range. So just as the inductor would be rolling off response above 2,500 Hz, the rising impedance of the midrange keeps the response almost flat. This is a given: Using the B-209B with the N-10102A xover, the midrange will double with the tweets from 2,500 Hz to about 10kHz. There is no question that Rudy knew about this. But let's jump in the time capsule and go back 40 years. Most speaker systems of every stripe had a boosted high end. It was glitzy and impressed customers in the demo room. Rudy probably felt that this doubling was in a range that was very appealing to most users.

But it is not my job to help Bozak sell speakers in the '60s. It is my task to revise the xovers (and other elements such as cabinet design) in order to allow the world-class drivers to sing in their true, natural voices.

Here's what works best to curtail that upper end doubling: On the N-10102A xover, at terminal strip A, move the jumper from the N-101/N-104 terminal to the other one, marked N-102. That doubles the inductance feeding the midrange, which happens to lower the drive to the midrange in the 2.5 kHz ~ 10 kHz range, exactly what we need. (For technocrats: that inductance was used for an 800 Hz rolloff for the 16-ohm B-305 midrange.)

As for using a 3,300 Hz upper xover: that's OK but there are a couple of drawbacks. For one, when the frequency is high (short wavelength) compared with the diameter of the radiator (cone), the upper frequencies get very directional. That might not be noticed very much, but it could actually reduce the acoustic output at a considerable angle off straight ahead. Secondly, needless to say, at any given frequency, the transient response of a small cone is superior to that of a large, heavier cone. And if I had to pick the one most outstanding property of Bozak drivers, it would have to be transient response.

That's my two cents worth for now. If I can answer any questions, fire away.

I want to sincerely thank Tony Jerant (DrJ) for disclosing my xover mods to the group, and for his most gratifying compliments.

Best wishes to all,

Pat Tobin"
 
And another post of note. FWIW, I found both of these to be quite revealing and helped me answer my questions above, so pasting them here for others to easily find seemed like the right thing to do.

"Bozak Midrange and General Sound

Well, here I am starting at the beginning of time. (Well, April.)

Regarding the comments about "The Bozak Sound:" The early Bozaks ('50s) were never an easy first sale. I worked as the repair tech in a prominent stereo store in the '50s (yes, I was barely out of diapers) and saw this first hand: In A-B comparisons in the listening room, most first-time buyers would opt for a competing system that had more flash bang in the sound. The Bozaks are just too true, while the competing iron jumped at you. Bozak was under a lot of pressure from the dealer network to make the Bozaks sound more like the inferior competition which was selling better. Most first-time buyers, after learning how little they liked hearing the same flash and bang in everything they played, would come back to the store in a few months and say, "Uh...could I hear those Bozaks again?" But this was little consolation to the dealers, who wanted Bozak to compete for first-time sales.

The early Bozak systems were perfectly balanced - woofer to midrange to tweeters - and everything in phase. So in the early '60s, when the aluminum-coned B-209A/B midrange and B-200Y tweets came on stream, Bozak really fouled up the xovers. For starters, the polarity of the midrange was reversed. This resulted in a mid sound that was incredibly prominent without actually being louder. With the mid reversed in polarity compared with the woofs and tweets, the xover regions were cancellation notches. This 'isolated' the midrange in a manner similar to a picture which is surrounded by a wide, plain matte - it makes the subject more prominent. But the down sides were degraded overall smoothness and seriously degraded stereo imaging. Without any doubt, the reversed polarity on all Bozak N-10102A xovers should be corrected. (It is not crossed on the N-10102 xover, used with the early paper-coned B-209 midrange and B-200X tweets.

The other issue was the Y tweets. They are about 9 dB hotter (louder) than the woofer and midrange (and the previous paper-coned X tweets). Presumably this was to enable inclusion of a Brightness control which could reduce tweeter level or make it higher than flat. Only a very few systems actually had the Brightness control, mainly the early Symphonies and a few B-302A systems. After just a year or so, the Brightness control pots were eliminated. A simple network consisting of a 25 ohm resistor paralleled by a 2.0 uF capacitor was put in series with the Y tweets. The results, by today's standards, are pretty awful. It results in a big hump in the mid highs, 5.0 kHz to 10.0 klHz, allowing the natural rolloff of the Y tweet above 10 kHz to go unaided. Can you say, "Disco?"

It is not my job to help Bozak sell speakers in a tough '60s and '70s market. What I am doing is re-engineering the xovers to remove the strange tweaks and allow the world-class drivers to sing in their full, true voices, unhampered by the craziness of the '60s and '70s. To that end I designed a much better circuit to drive the Y tweeters. It is more complex than the bozak one, and works much better. It reduces the extra 9 dB level to match that of the woofs and midrange, flat, without the hump. Then, with 9 dB of 'extra' level to play with, it is used to extend the extreme high range, boosting from 10 kHz up to the tweeter's normal limit of about 16 kHz. The result is highs that are very smooth; no peaks, no dips, and a smoothly extended upper range.

(The later xovers, from about '95, need even more help.)

You wanna know what the punch line is to this: Dig: No one who has never heard their Bozaks with the '60s ~ '70s craziness exorcised, has any idea how great they can really sound! That sounds radical, but is very, very true.

When the corrections are made, here is what you get, echoing Tony's comments:

The TRUE Bozak sound is neither mellow nor sharp. It is just incredibly accurate. Let me magnify that point. Little-known fact: The B-209B midrange driver uses the same 'motor' as the 12" woofer! Same magnet, same post and plates, same voice coil diameter. Yet the ultra-light aluminum cone must cover a range of only about 2-1/2 octaves (with 400 Hz lower xover). Driving that with the woofer motor is a little like putting a hemi V8 in a VW. The B-209B, with enough driving power, will reproduce transients that many other mids don't even see.

The woofer cone doesn't look particularly light, but the entire cone assy., including voice coil and vc tube, inner 'spider' suspension and outer suspension, all together weigh 39.5 grams. That translates, again, to superb transient response. The gutty string sound of a well-recorded bass can be so enjoyable on a Bozak woofer.

Here's another important point. Quick transients in good-quality recorded audio can easily reach 10 dB (voltage) above average level. That's a factor of 20:1 in terms of power. Therefore, if your average level is 3 watts, the amplifier must be capable of a clean 60 watts if all the transients are to be heard without clipping. Sometimes it is said that Bozaks will play comfortably loud from a pair of 6AQ5s or the like - call it 15 watts. It is highly unfortunate when that is done, because few high transients are being heard.

Rudy Bozak, in his many tutorial writings in brochures over the years, spoke about the 'educated listener.' It is clear what he means: those who have never heard Bozaks, properly configured and with adequate driving power, literally don't know what they are missing. They are judging from their experience base of speakers of less capability.

Bozaks do have a sound character, and this is it: Properly set-up Bozaks reproduce, accurately, every kind of sound you can throw at them. They are great on classical, great on jazz and great on rock. And they don't give a hoot what is driving them - VT or SS - so long as the power is ample and very clean. There is nothing to support the opinion that Bozaks are best with VT amplifiers. I listened to my early mono systems with an MC-30 for years. When I converted to stereo I went with a clean SS receiver and have never looked back. Actually, the damping factor of the Macs is very moderate - around 12 - very kind to cranky, hard-to-drive complex xovers. The Bozak bottom end actually appreciates the much-higher DF of good SS amplifiers.

I have unlimited admiration for the late Rudy Bozak. Nothing I do is intended to 'correct' any of Rudy's work. Were it not for the intense pressure from the dealer network, I am fully confident that the sound with my mods is exactly the sound Rudy would have liked. It took the speaker industry years, even decades to adopt some of the principles Rudy originated in the 50's. My work is dedicated to Rudy Bozak, in hopes that modern listeners can hear his genius through his world-class drivers as they were designed to be heard.

There's lots more to say - about enclosures, bi-amping, tweeters a lot. This essay will serve as foundation on which to base any further (hopefully brief!) comments.

With best wishes to all,

Pat Tobin"
 
Well, the parts came Wednesday and I just finished up the second crossover and am giving them a listen. I'm playing them on the HK 430 receiver (25 wpc) I picked up last week , but will also test them out with the Altec 9442A (100 wpc), and my Kegger modded Maggie (10-15 tube wpc) to see what I think.

So far, they seem quite nice, but do fall short of the A7s for presence and air in the highs, which I don't know is entirely to be unexpected. Much better bass though.

I did have them running with different crossovers yesterday and was able to compare the differences between the Tobin version and the OEM Bozak, which actually were quite striking. Using the Balance control, I was able to roll the speakers on a mono FM source and make a few readings off my smartphone RTA. As expected, the modded system was about -3-4dB less efficient as the modded crossovers also moved the crossover points form 800/2500 to 400/1250 to best allow the drivers to work in their ranges. Doing so does reduce the overlap in the midrange, so a reduced output and efficiency is noted. Also the -9 dB "cooling of the tweeters by the resistors also adds to this reduced output too. To get the same average readings I had to crank up the Tobin side a bit.

I really wish I knew how to use this phone app better as I'd post some shots/scans. Has anyone done some pink noise RTA work on the Tobin mods? I'd love to see what those graphs look like.

There's a lot of different opinions out there on what sounds best with the 302B, so I'm going to be rolling amps in and out over the next few days and reporting back on them. I'm also able to hook up the A7s by swapping out banana plugs, so I can judge them head to head too, so i'm looking forward to see what that may bring.

More to follow...
 
I hear that Yamaha amplification works well with Bozaks. As I have no Yamaha amps, I have yet to be able to test this.

On paper, the venerable Sansui 3000A doesn't look like that good of a match, but it works in my setup. I've never hooked them up to the Altec 9442A, but it sounds like an interesting combination.
 
Can anyone please tell me why the mids on Bozak N 104-A crossovers are reverse phase? Should I change it? Very confusing.
thanks, Russ
 
Can anyone please tell me why the mids on Bozak N 104-A crossovers are reverse phase? Should I change it? Very confusing.
thanks, Russ

Yes. Tobin addresses it here from the post above.

" So in the early '60s, when the aluminum-coned B-209A/B midrange and B-200Y tweets came on stream, Bozak really fouled up the xovers. For starters, the polarity of the midrange was reversed. This resulted in a mid sound that was incredibly prominent without actually being louder. With the mid reversed in polarity compared with the woofs and tweets, the xover regions were cancellation notches. This 'isolated' the midrange in a manner similar to a picture which is surrounded by a wide, plain matte - it makes the subject more prominent. But the down sides were degraded overall smoothness and seriously degraded stereo imaging. Without any doubt, the reversed polarity on all Bozak N-10102A xovers should be corrected. (It is not crossed on the N-10102 xover, used with the early paper-coned B-209 midrange and B-200X tweets."

And yes it is confusing. Make sure you also move both the ground leads to the top/rear lugs too. That's a trick that isn't obvious from the schematic either. In my first picture above I missed it on the B-199A connection, but got the B-209B right. move the connection to lugs at the red arrows.

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Thanks for the great advice. Gonna' give it a go and put them back in the JBL customs that they came out of. Can't wait to hear the difference.

Russ
 
Thanks for the great advice. Gonna' give it a go and put them back in the JBL customs that they came out of. Can't wait to hear the difference.

Russ

Expect the mids to be diminished, or less dominant, but smoother overall and a more supple, authoritative bass.
 
That's the 101T. From what I've read in various places, Mr. Tobin started recommending that the B302 crossover be set to his 104T design several years ago, moving the B302's high 800Hz crossover to the 400Hz point used by the larger Bozak speakers. There is a thread at the Steve Hoffman forum detailing all of this. Rudy Bozak designed the B199 to go low, not to reach up very high, and 800Hz is pushing it.

What isn't mentioned in a lot of the threads is that the inductors have taps, and you have to make sure you're using them properly. After some digging, I found THAT information buried at the Bozak Yahoo group. I only went looking for it after re-installing my rebuilt-as-101T crossovers and noting that the bass was lacking a bit while the mids and highs were quite aggressive.

That said, I now have everything needed that a relatively electrically informed person needs to properly rebuild and upgrade the Bozak N-10102 crossover saved on my computer. If anyone needs it, send me a PM with your email, and I'll send it along.

Now to go crack open my B302s again and switch the inductor taps. I still need to order the 50uF caps to replace the 25s on the B209 section.
That's the 101T. From what I've read in various places, Mr. Tobin started recommending that the B302 crossover be set to his 104T design several years ago, moving the B302's high 800Hz crossover to the 400Hz point used by the larger Bozak speakers. There is a thread at the Steve Hoffman forum detailing all of this. Rudy Bozak designed the B199 to go low, not to reach up very high, and 800Hz is pushing it.

What isn't mentioned in a lot of the threads is that the inductors have taps, and you have to make sure you're using them properly. After some digging, I found THAT information buried at the Bozak Yahoo group. I only went looking for it after re-installing my rebuilt-as-101T crossovers and noting that the bass was lacking a bit while the mids and highs were quite aggressive.

That said, I now have everything needed that a relatively electrically informed person needs to properly rebuild and upgrade the Bozak N-10102 crossover saved on my computer. If anyone needs it, send me a PM with your email, and I'll send it along.

Now to go crack open my B302s again and switch the inductor taps. I still need to order the 50uF caps to replace the 25s on the B209 section.
Hi Sam..Have an extra pair of N10201 for the Bozak 302-A was looking for a technician to do these crossover upgrades. Do you do this work or can you recommend a technician?
 
Hi Sam..Have an extra pair of N10201 for the Bozak 302-A was looking for a technician to do these crossover upgrades. Do you do this work or can you recommend a technician?

I would suggest heading over to Facebook and joining the private Bozak users group. I believe David MacRunnel will do it for you, there are probably others. And since you have the B302A with the tweeter array mounted over the woofer, I would suggest installing an 8ohm L-pad in place of the 7.5ohm resistor in Pat Tobin's design. This will allow you to attenuate the tweeters so that at low to medium levels you'll get far more highs versus without the l-pad. Otherwise, at those lower levels, the tweeters will sound dull and lifeless. Which has been a long time complaint with Bozaks sportin' the woofer mounted tweeters. They're mounted too darned low! But now you have a solution to those ills.

Biggles
 
I just noticed the earlier posting in this thread when it moved to the top of the list.

With respect to the midrange polarity reversal, the commentary below is from Bob Betts, Rudy Bozak's right-hand man and the co-designer of the famed Bozak 909/919 preamp and 929/939 amps among others:
www.bobsamerica.com/bozak-xoveranalysis.html
After much analysis, testing, and evaluation we made the decision to accept the phase shifts at the center of the midrange band, rather than at both ends of the midrange band. We then sat back and waited for the fireworks to begin. Oddly enough, there were amazingly few! This is surprising, since customers are usually very quick to express a complaint, but remain conspicuously quiet when content. The feedback from our dealers, reps and end-users was almost unanimously complimentary. One Sunday morning I received a phone call from Benny Goodman asking when I was going to come to his studio and "...make the new repairs that I heard at the factory?" This is not a "yes" or "no" or good or bad decision. It is a gray area of engineering that is associated with the subjectivity of how we listen, what we listen for, our personal tastes, our ear-to-brain calibration from live vs. reproduced experiences (or lack thereof), and the intuitive thought process. The condition (and dilemma) of where to place the phase incoherency is a trade off - neither is technically correct when applied to a passive crossover, but quite often, the intuitive thoughts of a semi-technical evaluator will weigh in favor of the in-phase condition, only because "it seems to make sense." Oddly enough, Bozak Inc. was one of the last manufacturers to effect the midrange phase reversal. At that time, according to our research of currently available 3-way speaker products, about 85% to 90% of the speaker industry had already made the "correction" changeover.

By posting this (as I often do whenever Tobin's comments are posted) I am not disputing the value of undoing of midrange reversal. I am, instead, presenting the engineering explanation by Betts as to why this decision was made so that people can understand the historical context of the modification. Neither Bob Betts nor Rudy Bozak were being foolish, they made an engineering optimization for better or for worse, and this explains the reasoning behind the tradeoffs and decision.
 
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