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Brand new AT-LP120X seems affected by Anti Skating issue

C

chriz74

New Member
Hi guys, I just received a brand new AT-LP120X TT. I did the blank record test for anti skating and results are not good.

The Vertical tracking force is precisely set at 2g and with anti skating knob at 2 the arm flies fast to rest position.

Before anyone says the blank vinyl record test is not revealing, I had a conversation regarding how to know if anti skating is working with Audio Technica support this summer and this is what they said:

"The anti-skate will work on the newer models of LP120, and the LP120X. If you set the anti-skate to the corresponding value of the VTF then it will be approximately correct, but to set it precisely, then it would still ned to be determined using an oscilloscope. Then in theory, when placed on a blank disc the tonarm will remain positioned where it is placed"

Thoughts?

 
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In order for anti-skate to "work" it doesn't necessarily need to correspond to the numbers on the dial.

Although I'm not a fan of the blank record test because it will lead you to overcompensate the anti-skate for non-DJ use, consider this:

-If the arm moves to the center label too fast, you have too little anti-skate

-If the arm moves to the tonearm rest too fast, you have too much anti-skate

Experiment until you find a happy medium, or watch Peter L's videos on YT about anti-skate and set it that way.

If you don't like the tension on the AS spring, you can return the turntable or attempt to swap out the spring yourself as people did with the old LP120s.
 
patient_ot said:
In order for anti-skate to "work" it doesn't necessarily need to correspond to the numbers on the dial.

Although I'm not a fan of the blank record test because it will lead you to overcompensate the anti-skate for non-DJ use, consider this:

-If the arm moves to the center label too fast, you have too little anti-skate

-If the arm moves to the tonearm rest too fast, you have too much anti-skate

Experiment until you find a happy medium, or watch Peter L's videos on YT about anti-skate and set it that way.

If you don't like the tension on the AS spring, you can return the turntable or attempt to swap out the spring yourself as people did with the old LP120s.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply, however the question remains. Is this TT defective or not? As for Peter L videos it was suggested somewhere else that he is completely wrong on the causes of anti-skate as it is 100% caused by overhang and not by what he suggests.
 
I had the AT-LP120 once, got from Best Buy because I knew I could return easily.
Then anti-skate on these does not work.
I think you can open it up and do something to the spring if you are so inclined.
I don't think the turntable is defective, it's just made that way.
Call me crazy but I use an old Laserdisc to check anti-skate. All other tables I have ever had with anti-skate,
you can put the arm in the middle with the platter spinning and turn the anti-skate back and forth, causing the
arm to skirt inward or outward, depending on the setting, until you have it adjusted correctly.
However the AT-LP120 never did this. And as I recall I tried two different tables from Best Buy.


Just sayin'

Cheers
 
chriz74 said:
Thanks for your reply, however the question remains. Is this TT defective or not? As for Peter L videos it was suggested somewhere else that he is completely wrong on the causes of anti-skate as it is 100% caused by overhang and not by what he suggests.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link for that? I'm not sure what you are talking about.

In any case, increasing the anti-skate force will pull the arm closer to the rest or make it move more slowly to the center label. Decreasing the anti-skate does the opposite.

To my understanding, all PL is saying is to not use as much anti-skate force as the blank record method or certain test record torture tracks suggest. Since he retips cartridges and sees uneven wear as a result of improper anti-skate under the microscope, I'm inclined to believe him. Anecdotally, I've also found that I get better tracking this way. Other people have observed the same. This has nothing to with overhang which is a separate issue.

Re: your TT, that would depend if AT intends the dial numbers to perfectly correspond with whatever they deem a "correct" anti-skate setting.

It appears the anti-skate is working as evidenced by the arm's behavior, just not the way you expect.

If you're not happy, return the TT and try another one or get your money back.
 
fredjones said:
I had the AT-LP120 once, got from Best Buy because I knew I could return easily.
Then anti-skate on these does not work.
I think you can open it up and do something to the spring if you are so inclined.
I don't think the turntable is defective, it's just made that way.
Call me crazy but I use an old Laserdisc to check anti-skate. All other tables I have ever had with anti-skate,
you can put the arm in the middle with the platter spinning and turn the anti-skate back and forth, causing the
arm to skirt inward or outward, depending on the setting, until you have it adjusted correctly.
However the AT-LP120 never did this. And as I recall I tried two different tables from Best Buy.


Just sayin'

Cheers
Click to expand...

Did you see my video? The TT in question is the newer lp120x, anti skate should work. It's difficult however to tell if it's working or not as everyone seems to have a different idea of what happens when it's working.
 
patient_ot said:
Do you have a link for that?
Click to expand...

it was a post by someone in a long debate over a DD33 .. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=112457&start=180#p986488

"Peter Ledermann might be right about the correct amount of antiskating force to use, I don't know.
But he is completely wrong about the cause of the skating force, which makes me skeptical about the rest of these two videos.
The skating force is caused 100% by overhang. It has NOTHING to do with the angle of the headshell, cartridge, cantilever, or stylus.
If there is no overhang, there is no skating force.
If there is underhang, you get a skating force towards the outer edge of the record.
If there is overhang, you get a skating force towards the spindle."
 
chriz74 said:
it was a post by someone in a long debate over a DD33 .. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=112457&start=180#p986488

"Peter Ledermann might be right about the correct amount of antiskating force to use, I don't know.
But he is completely wrong about the cause of the skating force, which makes me skeptical about the rest of these two videos.
The skating force is caused 100% by overhang. It has NOTHING to do with the angle of the headshell, cartridge, cantilever, or stylus.
If there is no overhang, there is no skating force.
If there is underhang, you get a skating force towards the outer edge of the record.
If there is overhang, you get a skating force towards the spindle."
Click to expand...

I'm not going to argue about the cause of skating force as that's a different issue. It doesn't change the fact that there are many different opinions on how to set anti-skate and to my understanding, no single method is perfect because skating force various across different records and different points on a record. Use the method that works best for you. I use the PL method because it works best for me.

If you want to try the Oscilloscope/1Khz method, you can get an appropriate test record and download a scope program if you don't have an actual oscilloscope. The trouble with this method as they suggest (testing for channel balance and adjusting anti-skate) is that it doesn't account for variations in how test records are cut and pressed and manufacturing tolerances in how cartridges are made. The cart on your TT has a channel balance tolerance of up to 2dB, for example. Even very expensive cartridges can have up to a 1dB difference between channels straight from the factory...
 
chriz74 said:
Did you see my video? The TT in question is the newer lp120x, anti skate should work. It's difficult however to tell if it's working or not as everyone seems to have a different idea of what happens when it's working.
Click to expand...

If it didn't work at all, the arm would always move to the center. Yet, the video shows the arm moving to the rest when you jack up the AS dial. So it definitely works, just maybe not in the precise manner you expect it to, e.g. the AS dial set at 2 perfectly corresponding to a VTF setting of 2...
 
Frank Sol said:
Thread is a little confusing... maybe it is just me

If adjusting the anti skate affects the tonearm movement (inward and outward swing) then it is working... maybe not perfectly but is working

I would not worry about the numbers on the dials matching up
Click to expand...

Exactly!
From your video OP, your turning the AS knob affects the direction and speed of travel... so to me your AS IS working.

Knob number be-damned...
AS = VTF is just a suggested starting point... not an absolute (IMO).

Set it for what "seems right" to you and enjoy.

Ben
 
chriz: Oh, well, of course Ledermann is presenting a somewhat simplified explanation regarding the cause of skating in that video, 'cause generally speaking the geometrical cause of skating in case of a radial-tracking arm simply is the directional deviation between the groove drag vector and the virtual arm axis between the needle tip and the pivot point of the tonearm - but with the scope limited to our usual radial-tracking tonearms designed for one of the usual alignment geometries (or slight variations thereof), he's actually correct, that the cocking of the headshell or respectively the offset angle can be regarded as the reason for skating, because it represents most of that deviation between groove drag and virtual arm axis (or even all of it, when the needle tip is at one of the two null points, as there is no remaining tracking error angle there).

And in fact sunwire's claim, that underhang would always cause a skating force towards the outer edge of the record isn't correct.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
chriz74 said:
I am starting to think even manufacturer don't have a clue as to how anti skate should work. I think I will keep this TT and forget about it.
Click to expand...

If you're not hearing any significant channel imbalance (through headphones is how I check) I wouldn't fret over it
Time to enjoy the music!


Ben
 
@chriz74 , there isn't "one" way to adjust anti-skate, there are different schools of thought and philosophies. This is what people have been trying to explain to you. RE: the manufacturer, it's not AT, even though their brand name is on the unit. The unit is made by Hanpin. It's possible they went through some production samples and all appeared well, and then the factory started subbing in springs with more or less tension on them. That can happen in contract/third party manufacturing.

Your anti-skating works, end of story. The numbers on the dial just don't correspond to a precise method of adjustment. Figure out what anti-skate philosophy you want to follow, do the adjustment, and move on.
 
Another option is to return your recently purchased LP120X and get a refund. Anti skate feature has been around for 50 years if a present day mfg cant do that right what else cant they do right. Plenty of alternatives that function as designed.
 
majick47 said:
Another option is to return your recently purchased LP120X and get a refund. Anti skate feature has been around for 50 years if a present day mfg cant do that right what else cant they do right. Plenty of alternatives that function as designed.
Click to expand...
People here is saying AS is working. But how did the repaired lp120 (the old one) perform regarding AS? I saw at least one video on YT where it seems the arm stays put
 
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